Questions To Tallgeese

[Jay]

Hi Tallgeese I saw this post of yours and I was just wondering if it would be possible for you to elaborate on a couple of the points. I could have sent it as a pm but I thought it would be good for others as well. I know that you have a fair amount of real world experience as far as your job goes and I have very limited experience as far as real world defense goes. I also hope it stays that way. So I would just like to draw on your opinions as far as certain things in this post goes.

everyone always assumes that ground skill integration means submission wrestling with the bad guy. In actuality, the controlling postures and ability to simply gain these postures is the critical component in self defense grappling.

For those skills, BJJ would serve you really well. Of course I'm biased, but it's a bias based on what I've seen work repeatedly in real world situations.

I know the idea of intentionally taking someone to the ground brought up, again, it's the controlling once on the ground that's paramount. Besides, Judo will lead you to exactly the same thing.

If you want takedowns for self defense, look at wrestling. Learn a solid double and single, then work them out of clinch work which is a common situation in sd situations. Work with a good wrestler and figure out a standing single, blast double, and a couple of other things that will capitalize on level change without dropping a knee to the floor. This will give you takedowns without turning your back for throws or picking up a foot for sweeping. Thus, you get to keep your base solid throughout the encounter.

Im interested that you say controlling postures are critical in self defence and I may have missed the debate of deliberately taking people to the ground. Although I do grapple my view from my limted view point is that I want to spend the least amount of time on the ground as possible. I approach self defense with an escape mentality, I do not want to be close to an opponent controlling them due to the potential of a weapon being pulled on me. My view is to strike and escape. That is why I would not think of pulling a takedown unless I ended up in a holding position with the other person from which takedows are effective. In my opinion something like a leg throw or a shoulder throw would be more natural than a single or double (I have not really trained singles or doubles much , but I know off the techniques) plus the opponent would hit the ground harder. This would then allow me to get outa there, unless I get pulled down as well, which can occur. I understand your points about being better balanced and not turning your back to the opponent with the single or double though.

Now we may be talking about similar things but in a different way which can often happen but I reckon I could learn something so I thought I would ask.

[tallgeese]

Jay, no problem. First up, let me clarify that I agree wholeheartedly in the concept of striking past a situation and getting away. I think it's a good plan, and we even utilize it in law enforcement to disengage to call for backup, access a weapon, or the like given a situation.

My thoughts on ground skill integration comes for the fact there are times this just doesn't happen. But I do agree staying up is a good idea in conflict. There is a quick bonus to training in grappling we should touch on here, and that's the more training one does in grappling arts of any kind, generally the better on gets at staying on ones feet.

This leads us to our first controlling positions we deal with when we talk about grappling integration. That's mainly the use of pummeling and underhooks to smother an opponents offense. If the fight crashes together, and people get tight with one another (your choice, his, or the environment) the positions created by a working knowledge of this will be invaluable. BY utilizing pummeling to achieve standing body locks, side or back body locks, ect. you can throw a blanket on his ability to generate power in his striking. The advantage to this is obvious. It can lead to putting him down, or simply disrupting his ability to immediately follow you on your escape. So even from standing it's this position training that far exceeds any highlight reel flying submissions.

Once we move to the ground, most people think that integrating BJJ or any other grappling skill means wrestling with the bad guy for submission or such. Again, in my experience, the ability to control is probably more important than anything. If you end up on bottom, the ability to move from here to the top is paramount. This is all position work, not submission.

A good, solid mount, side mount, back mount and transitions to each and strategies for obtaining each really give you an advantage. Bu crushing a subject you start to wind him, you start to get in his head, and if you do pop up and run you start from a much better position. Additionally, if you're controlling him, you can more easily read his intents. The more you train to control and relax, the longer you'll be able to fight, this stacks the deck in your favor while he's spazzing and gassing while trying to throw you off.

Again, this isn't the fancy stuff you'll see on you tube, but it's the core of BJJ and pretty good stuff of self defense.

As to work from the bottom, you'll need a guard, a recovery to guard, a handful of sweeps and movements to back. This gives you the ability to again control him. Movements from bad positions to guard are a life saving survival skill. From there, I can pull a bad guy in to keep him from strike with power or push away to prevent him crushing me. Side to side control keeps him off balance and allows you to start working to top.

The skills above won't land you in the Worlds, but they will integrate well into a self defense scheme that will round out your ability to survive conflict in the street.

If you think about putting them in context, a fight occurs, the bad guy is all over you and you end up on the ground. He's in a sloppy side mount by virtue of falling on you because you tripped on a curb. You hit a shrimping motion and recover guard and then sweep to mount. You gas him a bit while he freaks out, check your surrounds because you're comfortable here and make sure no one is getting ready to hit you with a tire iron from behind and then slide out to a knee in position. You crush him a bit more, maybe pop him a couple of times if he's froggy, then when his arms are clear (you'll know when is good because you're comfort level is high and you understand posture) you sprint off and clear about 25 yards before he gets up. Now, he has to decide to pursue or not. He's gassed because he doesn't know how to relax on the ground like you and mentally out of the fight because he's just been dominated. You've mentally won the fight as well.

That's kind of what I mean when I talk about utilizing ground skills in the matter your talking about for self defense. Hopefully, it transmits the idea of controlling with posture. The best way to get good at that is training in a specialized ground art (per the other thread).

Hope that elaborates the way you'd wanted. Let me know if I need to clarify or expand anything. Bushidoman and Kuma both work LE as well and have some good insight into stuff like this as well.

Thanks.

[Jay]

Thanks for that, I understand from which direction you are coming from, I especially liked the sample you gave. Im working on my ground fighting im terrible but I will get there eventually.

Just one small thing, from where would you deploy the single or double leg takedown, I need to train them more obviously but im interested in the circumstances and range they would be deployed.

Plus like Tallgeese said anyone else that has some insight please go ahead.

[tallgeese]

I favor the double and single from the pummel. It allows me to have control, at least in part, over the bad guy before committing to a takedown effort. The standing single has been particularly useful to me a couple of times. This keeps me from fully dropping to a knee for the dump. It still uses a level change, but less committed.

I like a blast double as well, again, because it keeps me up more. Again, I've used it with good results at least once.

I've had better luck with body locks and double and single variants against fully combative subjects than I did with more traditional arm bars and such that I utilized before. It's why I've made the transition to using them almost exclusively. As you said, we're all working on things, making them tighter and evolving our game.

I've had the fortunate luck to be in a profession where I can pressure test some of the tactics we're talking about. It's really fast forwarded how I look at integrating things.

I'll try to find some video or just shoot some and post here in a few days time about some to the things you've asked about.

[ShoriKid]

Jay, Tallgesse,

Care if a primarily stand up guy drops into the conversation? Jay, I'm like you, I don't want to get pinned down in a self-defense situation. But, we train ground skills, BJJ with a dash of wrestling for years back that we try to keep sharp. When we've worked basic positions, escapes and sweeps and how to maintain position in a purely grappling context, we start mixing it into our stand up skills.

One of the drills we work from is our basic get up. 2 minutes in the center, start from your back. The aggressor gets what ever position they want. Time starts and all you're trying to do is get a clean escape. Stand up, free of their limbs and in a good, clear, defensive position. The aggressor has gloves on and can strike to keep you honest. The guy on the bottom gets up and the drill starts over until the 2 minutes is finished. They are constantly reminded, bottom man just wants up clean and with as little damage as possible, it's not about the submission. The top man is reminded, whatever you do, keep them down, hit them or go for the sub, it's your game.

As I keep telling the guys, I train ground work for two reasons. One, I enjoy the ability to push hard with less worry about injury than going hard contact in stand up. Two, I'm selfish. I've spent too many years training my striking skills to get knocked off my feet or tackled by a former football player and have all that hard work canceled out. I want to get up and fight on my terms. So ground work is how I get to keep fighting the stand up fight.

[tallgeese]

Jay, here is a brief vid we cut the other day while training in regard to the idea of positional dominance. It's a brief look at how I think in regard to the concept, from up top to the ground. I hope its helpful for the discussion. Since most of my real-world experience in interpersonal conflict is in law enforcement, I mention some of how it effects my perspective, again, I hope it's helpful for the discussion.

bushido man, Kuma, Callvin, if you have input as to the LE aspect please feel free to input.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQyqt4DKhRo

[MasterPain]

Jay, here is a brief vid we cut the other day while training in regard to the idea of positional dominance. It's a brief look at how I think in regard to the concept, from up top to the ground. I hope its helpful for the discussion. Since most of my real-world experience in interpersonal conflict is in law enforcement, I mention some of how it effects my perspective, again, I hope it's helpful for the discussion.

bushido man, Kuma, Callvin, if you have input as to the LE aspect please feel free to input.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQyqt4DKhRo

It says video is private.

[tallgeese]

Ok, the tech newbie might have actually gotten this fixed now. Link should be up.

[MasterPain]

Isn't it nice that your weapon hand is also the power side that you want to underhook with anyway?

It never ends up being this way, but I always tell new guys that we will teach them a key lock after 6 months of position.

[Groinstrike]

Great stuff TG, Good to see Sensei Bein was kind enough to lend you his legendary uke skills.