Do All Candadates For An 8th Dan Test?

[sensei8]

First of all, ranks are all relative and subject. So, let's please cast these types of beliefs, understandings, and/or arguments for another time and/or for another topic/thread.

In your style, what would be the testing criteria for someone testing for an 8th Dan?

What really separates a 7th Dan from an 8th Dan?

Is it just tenure? Is it by a marked improvement in technical/knowledge abilities? Is it through a display of administrative/managerial abilities? I mean, just what is it within your style that allows one to be promoted to 8th Dan?

Do your 8th Dan candidates actually go through a rigorous test?

Hwa Rang Do claims the following..."Very few people in the world can fathom the dedication, skill, knowledge and time it requires to achieve an 8th Dan title in Hwa Rang Do. Hwa Rang Do is the only martial art which has curriculum all the way through 7th Dan, encompasses over 4,000+ techniques and requires a rigorous test for promotion in each degree, through 8th Dan."

I'm sure that the International Kendo Federation might not appreciate the claims of Hwa Rang Do for the simple reason that the IKF ALSO tests its 8th Dan candidates. The 8th Dan Kendo exam is extremely difficult, with a reported pass rate of less than 1 percent.

The style that I've trained in for over 4 decades, Shindokan, has a curriculum/syllabus through 8th Dan, and in that, our 8th Dan candidates are put through a very rigorous week long test, known by its nom de voyage, A Week In Hell. Only our 9th Dan and 10th Dan ranks are awarded through administrative selections by our Hombu. In that, only 3 have been promoted to 10th Dan, and they were of Sokeship level. Only 1 has been promoted to 9th Dan, and that was our first Kaicho, Yoshinobu Takahashi Sensei, who was later promoted to 10th Dan when he assumed the title of Dai-Soke.

I've heard/read that Shotokan only tests up to 5th Dan. In that, I wonder what one has to do to receive promotions to 6th Dan and up in Shotokan?

I wonder what other styles test/don't test their 8th Dan candidates?

[luca61]

Except for the individual that promote themselves before 40 yr of age, I don't think that the criteria should be decided by a marked improvements in technical abilities. If are are a serious martial artist by the time that you have achieved a 7 Dan there will a natural erosion of physical skill. Personally, I believe that the 8th Dan should be awarded based on knowledge and ability to pass your experience to future generation. With regards to the Hwa Rang Do claim to be able to know 4000+ techniques I wonder how many you can do well. After 30 yr I'm still struggling in iimproving the basic ones. I know that some organization ( like the SKA) stop their ranking at 5th because it was the last one achieved by Funakoshi ( but I could be wrong about that)

Happy 4th of July,

[sojobo]

It varies from group to group.

Dan grades can be awarded by associations, national governing bodies and international bodies.

Some Wado associations here in the UK only do practical examinations up to and including sandan - thereafter grades are awarded.

When Suzuki introduced Wado ryu Karate into the UK, the highest grade that anyone had achieved at the time (including Suzuki) was 5th Dan – and that was awarded by Ohtsuka sensei.

Some karate styles still have 5th dan as their most senior grade.

I can't answer your question in terms of what is the difference, as I have never seen a Hachi-dan examination (in Wado).

I know the JKF Wadokai have Hachi-dan examinations in Japan each year, but very few people have actually passed. In fact I don't think there is anyone currently living outside of Japan that has passed the exam.

Even Shingo Ohgami sensei (world renowned author in Wado) failed his 8th Dan. I've been fortunate enough to have trained with him on many occasions and he is awesome - so lord only knows how good you have to be to get it.

In fact Arakawa Toru, who is a 9th Dan with the JKF (and one of Japans most senior technical Karate directors and sensei), never took the test, so technically he hasn't passed it either - but let’s face it – who is there to judge him?

Interestingly, there are other examinations within the JKF Wadokai that have an even lower pass rate. These are the instructor licenses (2nd and 1st kyu level). Very few people in Japan (and even less outside) have a 1st Kyu instructors license - Mr Ohgami is one of them however!

So... it's not always about the grade.

sojobo

Edited July 4, 2011 by sojobo

[ps1]

Time in grade. Nothing more. BJJ rank is very subjective. Every degree in BJJ requires a minimum time. In BJJ, 7th degree is "master" rank. In order to attain that rank, you must be both technically excellent and have contributed to the art in a very big way. It's not guaranteed that one will ever earn this rank or any above it, despite knowledge or time in grade.

[evergrey]

In Kyokushin I have heard that in most organizations, after 5th dan or so it's all politics. Politics, tenure teaching, and the belief in the organization that the person is worthy of grading.

But I mean, there's a lot of orgs where 3rd dan involves a 50 man kumite. By the time someone gets up to 8th dan, they're often in their 60s. I don't think at that point it's fair to ask them to do a 100 man kumite... at that point, their abilities shine through their students.

OSU

*edit* My Sensei was subjected to a SURPRISE 50-man kumite for his SHODAN.

Haha, he just told me about that. Wow.

[honoluludesktop]

My favorite example of

is what kendo does in Japan. They have a national test by competition. Those that past the competition, are then asked to submit a written examination. They have a panel of judges that vote each match. The judges themselves, are highly ranked graduates of this process. Although you don't have to win the most points to get selected, that rarely happens.

A national Karate exam is unlikely, but for organizations that have enough members, this can be attempted.

[Shizentai]

My favorite example of

is what kendo does in Japan.

You know, when I first saw this topic I instantly thought of this video. I must have watched the whole thing four or five times myself. I'm glad that someone had already posted it!

To be perfectly honest, I've never seen a JKA hachidan test. There are only a handful in the world that have that rank, and my sensei's 8dan is older than I am. The highest tests I've ever watched were 6dan. The testing process for 6th dan that I saw included kata, bunkai, kihon, kumite, self defense, written exams, cross examination, and a presentation of independent research into some aspect of karate. That said, I've seen the test four times, and never seen a single person pass.

Although, in our handbook it says this about people who test for 8dan:

1. Must have spent a minimum of 7 years as a 7th dan.

2. Must have the recommendation of the Instructors Committee

3. Must test at headquarters in Tokyo

4. Must demonstrate total mastery of the secrets of karate, both physical and mental, and show an extraordinary level of spiritual development

Number four... wow.

[sensei8]

Shizentai,

Yeah...number 4 is WOW indeed. That's the failing parameter of that said testing requirements!! An indomitable spirit is needed to endure the rigors of the martial arts!!

[JCavin]

Awesome topic guys. Thanks for this. Lot of stuff I didn't know.

[honoluludesktop]

The interesting thing about kendo is that the 8 dan is the highest grade to be granted by performance (shiai / match) test. I wounder if any karate exam at that level is conducted with such a demanding match test.

The pass rate is under 1% out of 721 applicants (1997) who must be at least 47 years old, and 7 dan for 8 years. The examiners must be at least 8 dan for 15 years.

Edited July 6, 2011 by honoluludesktop