Kata - What's it all for?

[sojobo]

Dobbersky wrote:

One thing that gets me about Kata is that 90% of schools practice the Pinan/Heian series first (Pinan Nidan before Shodan - to me this is wrong Shodan is Shodan as it is the first one!!!) Then this is where it gets mixed up. Dependant on the school, depends on where they put the Kata!

For Wado (as this is where I had most experience of traditional Kata)Kushanku usually after the Pinan series, then Naihanchi, then Chinto. But the same kata are different position in Shotokan or Shito Ryu.

Then we get Goju and other Okinawan styles that don't practice the Pinans at all

Why?

I think any order of kata is, to some extent, arbitrary. The history appears pretty clear, that 100 years ago and earlier, a person might only 3, or at most 5 kata. The way in which we practice kata today, with so many, is a relatively recent innovation.

In Wado - the order that Kata is learnt is far from arbitrary.

For example... there is no harm learning Chinto before Seishan, and Seishan before Naihanchi - but... they are best "realised" by learning them in the correct order (from a Wado perspective) - Naihanchi then Seishan then Chinto.

This is how it is/was in the Samurai Koryu Bujutsu schools also.

Kata is an integral part of that pedagogy.

@ Cayuka - there is no doubt that both Okinawan and mainland Japanese MA were hugely influenced by Chinese MA.

However - perhaps the way that the Japanese (particularly the mainland Japanese) approach Kata is different to the Chinese.

Sojobo

[Ueshirokarate]

In Wado - the order that Kata is learnt is far from arbitrary.

For example... there is no harm learning Chinto before Seishan, and Seishan before Naihanchi - but... they are best "realised" by learning them in the correct order (from a Wado perspective) - Naihanchi then Seishan then Chinto.

This is how it is/was in the Samurai Koryu Bujutsu schools also.

Kata is an integral part of that pedagogy.

@ Cayuka - there is no doubt that both Okinawan and mainland Japanese MA were hugely influenced by Chinese MA.

However - perhaps the way that the Japanese (particularly the mainland Japanese) approach Kata is different to the Chinese.

Sojobo

Same in Matsubayashi Ryu, the katas are mostly placed in order of complexity and difficulty starting with Fukyugata Ichi and ending with Kusanku. They are also far from arbitrary.

Moreover, don't dismiss the Japanese influence on Okinawan and Chinese arts. I also believe there was enough influence to go around. These were all sea faring nations that traded heavily back and forth for a very, very long time.

[Cayuga Karate]

Sojobo wrote:

In Wado - the order that Kata is learnt is far from arbitrary.

For example... there is no harm learning Chinto before Seishan, and Seishan before Naihanchi - but... they are best "realised" by learning them in the correct order (from a Wado perspective) - Naihanchi then Seishan then Chinto.

And Ueshirokarate wrote

Same in Matsubayashi Ryu, the katas are mostly placed in order of complexity and difficulty starting with Fukyugata Ichi and ending with Kusanku. They are also far from arbitrary.

I am reluctant to get into a contest of definitions of terms, especially over what many might consider to be a fairly trivial point. But the choices the old masters have made I believe is worthy of full debate so I will discuss this further. First, I want to make clear that I have not attempted to argue that Otsuka or Nagamine didn't think long and hard about the appropriate order in which kata were introduced in their own systems. Of course they did. They each had a certain logic in developing their systems.

The point of my statement, rather, is that if one looks at where specific kata are introduced across systems, you tend to find surprising variety.

For example, in Wado Ryu, Kushanku can be introduced at Brown belt. In some Matsuybashi schools, it is taught later. In many Shito Ryu and Shotokan schools, Jitte and Bassai Dai are brown belt kata. That is not so in Wado. It is reserved for higher rank.

In Shotokan and Matsubayashi, the three Naihanchi are all taught, generally, after the Pinan. However in many Shito Ryu schools, Naihanchi Nidan and Sandan are not taught until much later. In fact in my many years of training across numerous Shito systems, I have to date never really seen Nidan and Sandan practiced, though I recognize in Kuniba systems that these are still practiced.

When we look back at the origins of our many systems today, what we find is that different founders have chosen to introduce (or require for testing) kata at different points in a students training. It is my conjecture, that by and large they kept their own councils when making these decisions. There was no committee meetings in these systems that led to these decisions. That is what I have tried to describe using the term "arbitrary", which, according to dictionary.com has as its first meaning "subject to individual will or judgment without restriction; contingent solely upon one's discretion."

What I did not intend to imply was another definition of "arbitrary", namely, "capricious; unreasonable; unsupported". This is actually the opposite of how I was using the term. I can appreciate that my use of the term was misleading. Perhaps a better term is a synonym for this use of arbitrary that does not have the negative connotations. "subjective" is probably a term that also accurately describes my point.

Let me expound further.

It is important to note that when it comes to the order of kata, the old masters are not the only ones that have a say in how and when kata are taught. Individual teachers also have a key role in that framework. So when we look within specific systems, we should anticipate that there may also be some variability in the introduction of various kata. For example, a quick web search reveals that not all Wado systems introduce (or require for testing) kata in the same order.

This Wado Ryu web site shows Kushanku required for Green to Brown belt, and Naihanchi required at brown belt.

http://winterpast-nc.com/Karate_Programs/Wado_Ryu_System_Syllabus.htm

This Wado Ryu web site shows Naihanchi before Kushanku.

http://www.wado-ryu-karate.com/Wado_Kata.html

This Wadokai web site shows Passai at 3rd kyu (not found in other Wado sites)

http://www.shudokankarate.org/belt-ranks-testing-requirements

The same variability can be found across different Matsubayashi dojos.

This Matsubayashi website shows that the brown belt curriculum includes: Wankan, Rohai, Passai, Chinto and Kusanku.

http://www.vashorinryu.com/curriculum.html

This Matsubayashi website shows that brownbelts learn Ananku, and not Rohai. Also, in this school, Kusanku is part of the Sandan curriculum.

http://www.oocities.org/matsubayashiryu/kata.html

The important point here is that these kata have been accumulated by specific masters through their studies with other masters, often more than one (as in the case of both Otsuka and Nagamine). The kata they were taught by these various masters did not come with "green belt" labels, or "brown belt" labels, or "second dan" labels. If we go back only 120 years, karateka only learned a few kata. Funakoshi and Motobu have stated that. Some history points to Higashionna only teaching four kata.

Fast forward to the 1920s and 1930s and suddenly, masters have 12 kata (Goju Ryu), 15 (Wado), 18 Matsubayashi, 27 (shotokan) up to 50+ (Shito Ryu).

As best as the old masters have attempted to introduce them in some sensible order, there is no escaping that the masters have had to make somewhat arbitrary decisions, often based on how much they like a specific kata, or how well they might be able to use movements for fighting, or how well it teaches specific skill they want their students to learn, or any number of other factors. These kata were not handed down with specific orders. Each founder of a style often had to create their own, especially if they learned kata from different sources. And today we find that those orders can continue to evolve, to some degree, over time. We can even see that within specific schools.

While I don't intend to delve into the immense complexity of some Japanese systems of Budo, I am aware of some sword systems where it is claimed that the techniques, and the order in which they are introduced, have been handed down that way for hundreds of years.

The modern systems of karate, are of much more recent vintage. And they are still evolving, often quite rapidly. Each teacher of each school must often rely on his own council, on what is the best method to teach his students. When one considers the definition of "arbitrary" above (subject to individual will or judgment without restriction; contingent solely upon one's discretion), or perhaps the better term "subjective", I believe these concepts fairly accurate describe what many system founders, and what many individual karate school owners generally do in deciding what is in the best interests of their students.

I hope this clarifies my point.

-Cayuga Karate

[Cayuga Karate]

Dobbersky wrote:

But What about Modern Jissen Based Kata, from Ashihara and Enshin Karate. These are completely different to "Traditional" Kata is performance and application. I again don't practice these Kata the way I was taught as I now have a Ne Waza version of the first Kata!

I mentioned above that we should expect to see karateka make efforts to try to ensure that their training improves their fighting capabilities. For some, this includes new training patterns and new kata that map more closely to the way that fights unfold. Two man fighting sequences such as Jissen help to accomplish this.

And some Ashihara kata (such as Kihon 3) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i87VT-Vo7H8 are also attempts at this. I really like these sequences.

I would love to know what is your opinion of Kyokushin compared to the other Ryu

It is my perspective that the emphasis on full contact in Kyokushin is as good a training mechanism (despite the associated injuries that come with this training), as any in karate.

I believe that these kinds of efforts are, in part, a result of many karate students being dissatisfied with the emphasis on traditional kata, which often, are not handed down with any meaningful fighting applications. You have well-summarized this entire challenge with your statement:

With regards to Kata, where does the "front stance and step forward and punch" come from that a lot of the traditional Ryu. I have never been attacked this way in the street but if you put a Jo in the hands of the "Uke" and it becomes a more valid attack!!!

I believe you have captured my arguments here quite well, but you have missed an important point. I would argue that the Okinawans would not have used short non-bladed pole-arms in defense of their tribute ships, but would have opted for the common military weapon of a bladed polearm, perhaps 20% longer than the jo. I believe you might concur, that if you put a short, maneuverable bladed weapon in the hands of a sailor, and train him extensively such that he can quickly charge and thrust in a long stance with arm movements that are near indistinguishable from a lunge punch, this would be an even more valid, and effective attack than an identical attack with the jo.

And perhaps more important, if you had two are three sailors surround a pirate, and do this attack, simultaneously, that there would be a very high probability that the pirate would, in an instant, be mortally wounded or killed.

Melee fighting aboard a ship is not limited to single sailors against single enemies, rather, it also, and likely primarily, consists of multiple sailors, at any given time, executing attacks in teams.

-Cayuga Karate

[Ueshirokarate]

I hope this clarifies my point.

-Cayuga Karate

Yes, it makes your point more clear. Yes, the order of kata was put in place by the respective founders of each system based purely on their judgement. That said, while they may appear similar and share a common name, each one of those styles has katas that differ greatly in numerous ways. There is no way I could walk into a Wado Ryu school and do kata the way I do in a Matsubayashi Ryu school. Furthermore, a green belt in one system may or may not be equivalent to green belt in another. For all I know, a green belt in Wado Ryu may be years ahead of a green belt in Matsubayashi or Shito in some things and visa versa. Heck, this varies from school to school in most systems. Each sytem, teacher and even student puts different emphasis on different things. To me, you are trying to compare oranges to apples when you compare katas or belts from one system to another.

[shadowspawn]

@sojobo and Ueshiro: In our school, we actually have the so-called "brown belt kata" as Kusanku, Jyuroku, and Naihanchi. A few years ago, Jyuroku was actually dropped so now we are left with only Kusanku and Naihanchi. My sensei attributed it to learning the "easiest and the hardest of black belt kata" so that it allows everything else in between to fall into place.

@cayuga: I completely agree. IIRC, karate as we know it today is actually more of a "blend" of pre-existing Okinawan martial arts. Attempting to put them in a single unified order would be like telling an aspiring MMA fighter that he has to train in boxing before he takes up any other martial art.

[Ueshirokarate]

@sojobo and Ueshiro: In our school, we actually have the so-called "brown belt kata" as Kusanku, Jyuroku, and Naihanchi. A few years ago, Jyuroku was actually dropped so now we are left with only Kusanku and Naihanchi. My sensei attributed it to learning the "easiest and the hardest of black belt kata" so that it allows everything else in between to fall into place.

@cayuga: I completely agree. IIRC, karate as we know it today is actually more of a "blend" of pre-existing Okinawan martial arts. Attempting to put them in a single unified order would be like telling an aspiring MMA fighter that he has to train in boxing before he takes up any other martial art.

No way I can speak for your style or sensei. I can say that the katas in Matsubayashi Ryu have been exactly the same and in the same order since the system was founded. Incidentally, in Matsubayashi Ryu, not only does the order of kata closely resembles that found in Shito Ryu, the katas we share with Shito Ryu also closely resemble one another. The only commonality to the Matsubayashi and Shito Ryu lineages is Anko Itosu.

[shadowspawn]

@sojobo and Ueshiro: In our school, we actually have the so-called "brown belt kata" as Kusanku, Jyuroku, and Naihanchi. A few years ago, Jyuroku was actually dropped so now we are left with only Kusanku and Naihanchi. My sensei attributed it to learning the "easiest and the hardest of black belt kata" so that it allows everything else in between to fall into place.

@cayuga: I completely agree. IIRC, karate as we know it today is actually more of a "blend" of pre-existing Okinawan martial arts. Attempting to put them in a single unified order would be like telling an aspiring MMA fighter that he has to train in boxing before he takes up any other martial art.

No way I can speak for your style or sensei. I can say that the katas in Matsubayashi Ryu have been exactly the same and in the same order since the system was founded. Incidentally, in Matsubayashi Ryu, not only does the order of kata closely resembles that found in Shito Ryu, the katas we share with Shito Ryu also closely resemble one another. The only commonality to the Matsubayashi and Shito Ryu lineages is Anko Itosu.

Not sure how that relates. I was merely further emphasizing the degree of variation depending on the beliefs of the ones in charge. Of course some styles are going to have more conservative masters than others. It doesn't exactly equate to a universal order for all kata originating in Okinawa.

[sojobo]

This Wado Ryu web site shows Kushanku required for Green to Brown belt, and Naihanchi required at brown belt.

http://winterpast-nc.com/Karate_Programs/Wado_Ryu_System_Syllabus.htm

This Wado Ryu web site shows Naihanchi before Kushanku.

http://www.wado-ryu-karate.com/Wado_Kata.html

This Wadokai web site shows Passai at 3rd kyu (not found in other Wado sites)

http://www.shudokankarate.org/belt-ranks-testing-requirements

Cayuga,

Schools and groups are free to teach kata in any order they want.

I'm in my 4th decade of training Wado and I can assure you that there is a logic behind the sequence.

You have to dig deeper than Google to find good info on Wado.

The best place to start is a good instructor.

Imo, there are too many "researchers" of karate these days and too few that have actually accumulated good dojo knowledge to have realised these things themselves- the ones that have, don't usually hang around these sort of places.

On the subject of Kata order (from a Wado perspective) - you can have this on me

Otsuka writes in his book "Wado Ryu Karate" (which demonstrates kata in the order; Pinan (x5), Kushanku, Naihanchi, Seishan and Chinto): -

" Kushanku...This kata rotates the body forward, back, left and right, with both hands and feet. It is similar to Pin-an in that sense. Once one masters Pin-an, it would make sense to study this kata next."

The next Kata featured in his book is Naihanchi of which he writes:-

"From Naihanchi, one may progress to Seishan, and furthermore, to Chinto."

Hope that gives you a little more actual detail (rather than google based stuff).

Sojobo

[Ueshirokarate]

Not sure how that relates. I was merely further emphasizing the degree of variation depending on the beliefs of the ones in charge. Of course some styles are going to have more conservative masters than others. It doesn't exactly equate to a universal order for all kata originating in Okinawa.

Point was that two styles with very similar katas ordered them in pretty much the same way. Other styles may have katas named the same and with some similarities, but they are very different in many ways so you can't really compare them to prove the arbitrary nature of kata order. For one style's Kusanku can be far more difficult and intricate than another style's. The only way to really order a sequence of kata is to do so in order of difficulty and I do believe that the founders of each style did just that based upon the individual katas of their respective style. Read Sojobo's notes, that is exactly what Wado's founder did.

I also believed they selected their katas based upon their philosophical view of karate and how the katas they knew fit this. I can also confidently state that there is no denying the progressive nature of Matsubayashi's katas, as well as their stylistic congruence.