Kata - What's it all for?

[todome]

outdated?

jeez

After 35 years since I started, almost 15 of that on the dojo floor, I'm still finding ways to improve the very first move of the very first kata. I guess I'll never catch up.

[brickshooter]

I think that Kata would be outdated if one were to see self-defense as a strictly one-on-one fight where the attacker is always coming from just the front.

Unfortunately, real world fights aren't like that. We often face multiple attackers who start their attacks from different directions. To me Kata addresses this major issue.

Kata not only teaches the striking and kicking, it teaches foot work, balance, locks, throws, breathing and most importanly, the rapid changing of direction & defending oneself versus a new attacker.

If I were to traing to fight MMA matches, I'd skip the kata work. Outside the cage, I'd keep the kata training just in case my attackers don't want to play fair.

[JCavin]

I would just like to add that my old Shorin Ryu instructor once told me that we die at the end of every kata. The kata should be practiced like you're fighting multiple people and just trying to do as much damage as possible before you're overwhelmed.

[moriniuk]

I would just like to add that my old Shorin Ryu instructor once told me that we die at the end of every kata. The kata should be practiced like you're fighting multiple people and just trying to do as much damage as possible before you're overwhelmed.

A little light hearted reply to the above.

Is that why you changed styles from Shorin Ryu to Kempo? I'd prefer to practice a style where you're the last man standing after you finish the kata. Not much point in training to lose.

I've never seen the finishing kata movement of collapsing in a heap, katas are usually finished with 'zanshin' or a state of awareness.

[tallgeese]

brickshooter, with due respect, I don't think that kata really is designed in that matter. When you talk look at kata design, it's a moving anatomy text. Bunki as we think of it often does not move in a direct pattern. One movement might be showing a striking location, another movement might be half of a sweep. It's a text book, largely misunderstood today my many martial artist.

Even assuming that the individual movements could be strung together in a cohesive fashion, by drilling kata for years you're assuming that you're incident with multiple attackers will occur every time from the same angles with the attackers producing the same attacks.

This is where I like to talk about being creative with randori and drilling methods. If you want to prep for this, work mitts with multiple holders moving to random locations. It will be a more realistic feel and give you more to think about with distancing and timing.

Realistically, multiple attackers usually mob a single defender thus rendering most kata style responses less than effective. It's more about moving and creating distance, circling and controlling one individual at a time in a fluid movement than beating up single attackers out of a mob till you're the last man standing.

You'll also notice that I never state that kata does not teach locks, throws, ect. However, again, this is often out of sequence. It's open to interpretation and decoding. Why not simply learn those movements and drill them. This lets you cut a step out of an already long learning process.

This gets you ready for an event faster. That in turn increases the likelihood of your survival. The time spent drilling kata can now go to more direct, fluid training.

[JCavin]

I would just like to add that my old Shorin Ryu instructor once told me that we die at the end of every kata. The kata should be practiced like you're fighting multiple people and just trying to do as much damage as possible before you're overwhelmed.

A little light hearted reply to the above.

Is that why you changed styles from Shorin Ryu to Kempo? I'd prefer to practice a style where you're the last man standing after you finish the kata. Not much point in training to lose.

I've never seen the finishing kata movement of collapsing in a heap, katas are usually finished with 'zanshin' or a state of awareness.

lol, that's actually quite a funny image. I should have done that...

Well, my old teacher was very much into the whole "Bushido" thing. We weren't training to lose so much as training without fear of dying. Accepting that you'll die takes away any inhibitions and misgivings you may have and you are free to just "do." It was a very interesting way to train, and I enjoyed it.

But, my instructor was only teaching his obscure style of Shorin Ryu because he thought he was the last teacher in that lineage(Okuhara via Chotoku Kyan), but he ended up finding some guys in Finland that were from the same school. So, he no longer felt the obligation to keep it alive. Which was unfortunate for me.

As for the Kenpo, I initially got into it because a coworker of mine started teaching for free. And, I enjoyed it enough to keep going.

We spend about 45 minutes at the end of each class sparring without pads, which is something i've never done.

[JCavin]

brickshooter, with due respect, I don't think that kata really is designed in that matter. When you talk look at kata design, it's a moving anatomy text. Bunki as we think of it often does not move in a direct pattern. One movement might be showing a striking location, another movement might be half of a sweep. It's a text book, largely misunderstood today my many martial artist.

Even assuming that the individual movements could be strung together in a cohesive fashion, by drilling kata for years you're assuming that you're incident with multiple attackers will occur every time from the same angles with the attackers producing the same attacks.

This is where I like to talk about being creative with randori and drilling methods. If you want to prep for this, work mitts with multiple holders moving to random locations. It will be a more realistic feel and give you more to think about with distancing and timing.

Realistically, multiple attackers usually mob a single defender thus rendering most kata style responses less than effective. It's more about moving and creating distance, circling and controlling one individual at a time in a fluid movement than beating up single attackers out of a mob till you're the last man standing.

You'll also notice that I never state that kata does not teach locks, throws, ect. However, again, this is often out of sequence. It's open to interpretation and decoding. Why not simply learn those movements and drill them. This lets you cut a step out of an already long learning process.

This gets you ready for an event faster. That in turn increases the likelihood of your survival. The time spent drilling kata can now go to more direct, fluid training.

Good post!

Although i'm one of the few here that works in law enforcement(corrections), I actually like doing forms.

In my opinion, basic kickboxing, parries, footwork, basic locks, and basic takedowns are all you'll probably need to defend yourself. These are all things you can learn well enough to hold your own in just a matter of months, if not less.

I tend to see forms as an avenue for people who enjoy human movement and are dedicated to their art. Kata is something you can do until you're like 100, so they're useful there. Not to mention the fact that they are just fun to do sometimes.

Now, I don't find them particularly useful for combat, but that doesn't mean they don't have their place in drilling basic stuff like footwork, body placement, intent, breathing, endurance, coordination, etc. Just don't think that you'll do forms every day and be unstoppable.

[brickshooter]

brickshooter, with due respect, I don't think that kata really is designed in that matter. When you talk look at kata design, it's a moving anatomy text. Bunki as we think of it often does not move in a direct pattern. One movement might be showing a striking location, another movement might be half of a sweep. It's a text book, largely misunderstood today my many martial artist.

Even assuming that the individual movements could be strung together in a cohesive fashion, by drilling kata for years you're assuming that you're incident with multiple attackers will occur every time from the same angles with the attackers producing the same attacks.

This is where I like to talk about being creative with randori and drilling methods. If you want to prep for this, work mitts with multiple holders moving to random locations. It will be a more realistic feel and give you more to think about with distancing and timing.

Realistically, multiple attackers usually mob a single defender thus rendering most kata style responses less than effective. It's more about moving and creating distance, circling and controlling one individual at a time in a fluid movement than beating up single attackers out of a mob till you're the last man standing.

You'll also notice that I never state that kata does not teach locks, throws, ect. However, again, this is often out of sequence. It's open to interpretation and decoding. Why not simply learn those movements and drill them. This lets you cut a step out of an already long learning process.

This gets you ready for an event faster. That in turn increases the likelihood of your survival. The time spent drilling kata can now go to more direct, fluid training.

Textbook - Sure, it could be a text book of techniques. But that doesn't mean that it can't also be a text for engaging multiple attackers, teaching footwork and the mental preparation needed to engage multiple attackers.

Angles - Sure, not all attackers will come with the same angle. But I don't think that Kata is meant for one to turn at the exact same angle but rather teach the footwork. Kata lays the foundation to which the practitioner has to adapt as necessary.

Countering multiple attackers. Sure, being fluid is one method of dealing with many attackers. But another way is to decisively drop the first few attacker with violent strikes. Attacker have a tendency to reevaluate their courage when they see their friend struggling to breath.

Creative training - Sure. But of all the dojos you've been in, how many actually implement training to counter multiple attackers? I generally hear a 15-30 second speech. And it ends there.

[JCavin]

Brickshooter,

I had to spar(without pads, full contact) against two people on Wednesday night.

It was essentially 5 minutes of me applying quick shots, evasive footwork, and then starting over.

[MasterPain]

We do 2 or 3 on 1 sparring on occasion. I'd suggest everyone else does too.