Kata - What's it all for?

[joesteph]

Application, Bunkai or whatever you want to call it was an integral part of a karateka's training. Every Kata I teach is taught and Bunkai goes hand in hand with it.

I applaud that you do this. When I spoke with my teacher in the past that I did not want promotions but applications, that I was concerned with taking the kata/forms I did know and learning the bunkai, I was informed that that wasn't the curriculum of the organization. Such information is taught once one reaches chodan/shodan.

I respect my teacher who, though I no longer study under her, I will always consider my teacher. She is a certified instructor, and is expected to follow the curriculum of the organization. I took time off, studied now-and-then at the dojang, attended a fighting school for a couple of months to do something more tangible, and eventually stopped training at red belt (3rd gup).

I remember entering a topic for discussion on this and another martial arts web forum, knowledge-based training. I wonder if I'd still be studying at the dojang if this request had been offered.

[todome]

The bunkai is a window to purpose, not the purpose itself. The question that should always be asked is whether the execution of a technique is truly effective. If not, and it won't be for years (including the heian), the lesson to take from that is not that the technique is of poor design but rather that there is more to learn, more the practice of the kata and the individual techniques can teach you.

Kata is the vocabulary of the style. The testing ground of change. The path through which even, perhaps I should say "particularly", the most fundamental understanding of karate should pass. I say "should" because often it doesn't. Kata is either abandoned or compromised in pursuit of more glamorous aspects of the art. Among those compromises I include tournament kata.

[Happy Dragon]

There is another aspect of kata which only reveals itself through purposeful repetition. I believe this is the training path to experience the state of mushin no shin (無心の心 mind without mind).

Something as abstract as a transcendent mental state can't be taught with description. Like a flower, the garden must be prepared and the seed planted, but the result only occurs with time and patience.

To paraphrase the Zen saying, "Before Enlightenment perform kata practice bunkai, after Enlightenment, perform kata practice bunkai."

[honoluludesktop]

IMO, mushin in martial arts results in a different objective then mushin in zen. In martial arts it is a state of mind that releases your conscious mind to trained fighting reflex, not meditation.

[Happy Dragon]

Given there are many type of meditation, why wouldn't the mushin type of meditation be exactly what you've described, honoluludesktop?

[honoluludesktop]

Given there are many type of meditation, why wouldn't the mushin type of meditation be exactly what you've described, honoluludesktop?

IMO and experience, the state that mushin defines while fighting, is unlike the state mushin defines in meditation. When fighting, "mushin" defines the subconscious state that allows "fighting reflex" to take control. When meditating, "mushin" defines the mental state that achieves subconscious "understanding".

Neither condition is intellectually understood, they are simply different experiences.

[sensei8]

Given there are many type of meditation, why wouldn't the mushin type of meditation be exactly what you've described, honoluludesktop?

IMO and experience, the state that mushin defines while fighting, is unlike the state mushin defines in meditation. When fighting, "mushin" defines the subconscious state that allows "fighting reflex" to take control. When meditating, "mushin" defines the mental state that achieves subconscious "understanding".

Neither condition is intellectually understood, they are simply different experiences.

Solid post!!

[bushido_man96]

What does Kata mean to you is it for just passing grades or is it something deeper, please feel free to elaborate as much as you want

Our forms are part and parcel with the testing requirements. Each rank has a form to test on. We don't do a lot of applications, unfortunately, as it really isn't in the nature of TKD. There are some applications there, and some instructors have made a point to draw applications out of TKD forms to add to the student's experience; which I think is a good thing. However, by and large, I don't see it much in TKD. The forms have more to do with technique development through advancing ranks. One thing that I can say about the ATA forms is that they are made with a clear goal of advancing technique in mind. The ITF forms do this as well, but to a lesser degree, I think.

[ChristianeHigashi]

we do a lot of kata where I train and practice it every session But i know other clubs around here don't do as much of it or none at all which is a shame.

We are told that every move is against an attacker.. this makes us think a lot more about the placement of the block or strike.

I dont think kata can be broke down too simply.. Eg. Pinan Shodan

[not the best but thats the closest to my the style i do that i can find on youtube]

The first move [not including the look] could be two strikes or, two blocks or one of each & its the same for most moves. So I think until you reach a senior grade you won;t fully understand it all, theres a lot to take in.

I think the understanding of it all comes in time.

As for musical kata, i think its absolute crap. 99% of that stuff is in no way, shape or form karate.

[honoluludesktop]

......To me, kata is an outdated training modality..................

You are right to a large degree, and modern karate is practiced with improved equipment and methods. However, IMO kata is what keeps us together as a discipline. Even different ryu share similar kata. If we eliminate kata, karate is like kick boxing, not karate.

Perhaps the challenge, is to bring modern relevance to kata, without changing its form.