Kata - What's it all for?

[Ueshirokarate]

It may also be helpful to look at Rohai:

Shito:

Matsubayashi:

Wado:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=_53Dd3f8NBk

It comes after Wankan in both Shito and Matsubayashi styles.

Ueshirokarate

Ohgami details the Wado version as "Itosu" Rohai Shodan.

I dont think that the Shito version is Shodan.

Sojobo

I know that there is only one Rohai in Matsubayashi and believe there is only one in Shito and to me they look like the same kata with slight stylistic variance. I can't speak for Wado.

[Cayuga Karate]

Ueshiro wrote:

Incidentally, in Matsubayashi Ryu, not only does the order of kata closely resembles that found in Shito Ryu, the katas we share with Shito Ryu also closely resemble one another.

I would argue that the order is substantially different, and below I will compare the two.

I would assume that the Matsubayashi Wikipedia page would have the correct order of kata.

Fukyukata 1 and 2

Pinan 1 through 5

Naihanchi 1 through 3

Ananku

Wankan

Rohai

Wanshu

Passai

Gojushiho

Chinto

Kusanku

What I think is quite obvious from this order is that at the beginning, we have ten "beginner" kata of relatively short duration (less than 20 seconds each). In the middle we have four kata of "medium duration" (typically around 25 seconds) and finally, at the end, we have four kata of "longer duration" (30 to 45 seconds). We are fortunate to have video that documents that way kata was practiced 50 years ago before the era of pauses and numerous slow movements that makes measuring kata length more complicated.

We can start with the video of Nagamine's senior students from, I believe, the early 60s. It could have been earlier.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2drhrqqp_E

This video documents Nagamine's students performing the two Fukyukata, the five Pinan, and the three Naihanchi, and all of which are done in less than 20 seconds. There is also video of Nagamine performing Wanshu at a bit over 20 seconds. Passai is truncated, showing only 18 seconds, but is missing approximately the first 15 seconds. Chinto takes about 30 seconds and Kusanku 45 seconds.

We have video of an old version of Wankan that is done in around 25 seconds. (More modern versions, especially those of Nagamine when he is quite old, typically take longer)

We have an early version of Anaku at about 25 seconds.

We also have video of Gojushiho (same video) taking about 45 seconds.

I'm not sure there is old footage of Rohai. Measuring the duration of this kata is complicated by the number of slow movements it contains. (opening, and forward walking steps). But I believe most would concur that its length would put it in the group of four "medium duration" kata, rather than the group of four "long duration" kata.

To summarize, the order of the Matsubayashi kata, could be viewed as categorized by length of kata with 10 short kata in the beginning, followed by four medium length kata, and ending with four long kata.

I think this order makes a lot of sense. However, it is not a universal formula that Okinawans used in teaching their kata. One only has to compare this methodology to Shito Ryu, which intermixes longer and shorter kata throughout the curriculum. For Shito Ryu, this has an intrinsic logic as I will discuss later.

In the link below, I have a table that compares the order of kata from four different systems of Shito Ryu that descend from Kenei Mabuni (Shito Kai), Kenzo Mabuni (Seito Shito Ryu), Itosu Kai (descends from Ryusho Sakagami), Kuniba Kai, (descends from Kosei Kuniba) and Hayashi Ha Shito Ryu (descends from Teruo Hayashi).

In addition, I compare this order to the order that Matsubayashi kata are taught.

https://picasaweb.google.com/106395288566490397177/Discard?authkey=Gv1sRgCODh_JKso4HJkAE#5722022527643630354

While opinions will certainly vary, I think many would concur that the Shito Ryu order cannot be said to follow the Matsubayashi order, for the simple reason that the various Shito Ryu lineages have significant variations between them. There are a couple of other points are also worth noting. Many Shito Ryu systems, if not most, have abandoned the practice of Naihanchi Nidan and Sandan, two kata taught early in the Matsubayashi system. Second, Passai (Bassai Dai) and Kusanku (Dai) come fairly early in the curriculum, pretty universally before Wanshu. Some Shito systems have the equivalent of one or two Fukyugata kata, but this is inconsistent.

When looking at the respective orders of these two systems, it is clear that Pinan (designed as beginner kata) are at the beginning, and Chinto and Gojushiho come much later at higher ranks. And we can also see it is common to find Shito Ryu systems with both Rohai and Matsukaze (Wankan) in the middle.

An important point that has yet to be addressed in this discussion to data relates to how many times a student might practice a kata, before another is introduced. This issue, in my opinion, is fundamental to the entire concept of "order". The relative order is, in my view, relatively unimportant. Rather, how long a student is expected to practice a given kata before moving on to another is, in my opinion, the key question, at least if there is an expectation that along with kata, the student is expected to develop proficiency in applying the movements for self defense.

Funakoshi tells us of his experience learning the three Naihanchi from Itosu. He had been training with Azato at the time for a number of years, and still, it took three years each to learn the Naihanchi.

In Shito Ryu, one would likely 25 or 30 kata by the time one gets to black belt, often after training for four years.

These comparitive training regimens (Mabuni, circa 1930, versus Itosu, circa 1880), in my opinion, have little in common. We are faced with this whole predicament for a simple reason. By the early 20th century, it became the norm for old masters to acquire more kata, and include all that they had learned into their curriculum. Funakoshi pushed back on this, and Otsuka did as well. Mabuni certainly didn't.

The historical records shows that Kyan learned seven kata from six masters. He passed them all on. It appears that Nagamine learned from Kyan, (or his students) Chinto, Kusanku, and Gojushiho. His system includes Passai, Anaku and Wanshu, but these are distinctly different from the versions of those kata practiced by other Kyan students, so I imagine (without consulting the history) that he learned them elsewhere. In his studies, he also learned Pinan, Naihanchi, Rohai and Wankan. Apparently he at least consulted with Miyagi, who designed Fukyukata 2 and Nagamine himself designed Fukykata 1. Like Kyan, he would wind up with a broad collection from numerous sources. And the order in which they are taught appears, all things being equal, to reflect the length of the kata.

Mabuni was the ultimate kata collector. He clearly wanted to preserve any of the old kata he could find. He viewed them as historical treasures. The systems that descend from him, as a result, today contain 40, 50, even 60 kata. And the order in which they are taught is not based on length.

That is not to say that length is not a factor. We find, of course, that Pinan are at the beginning (Mabuni, was, after all, an Itosu student), and longer kata like Chinto, Gojushiho as well as Suparenpei, are at the end.

However, there are many relatively short kata that are taught long after a number of longer kata. For example, one can see above that Kusanku and Passai are taught fairly early on.

I am not aware of anything Mabuni may have written regarding kata order. In the absence of clear evidence to the contrary, I speculate that the order in Mabuni systems reflects a attempt to "cover the bases". There is mostly Shuri-te, early on, but by brown belt, one typically sees a Naha-te kata, Tomari-te kata (Rohai and Wankan) and a Mabuni kata (usually Juroku). Many systems include Niseishi (Nijushiho) soon after, giving some coverage to the Aragaki curriculum. At Shodan, Naha-te kata become more prevalent.

I have reviewed this information, above, because I believe it has value for the broader karate community. Many students have experience in a single system, and it is quite natural to imagine that other systems probably have similar attributes. Regarding kata, especially in its relation to developing fighting skills, one key attribute is the specific kata they learn. Another is how long they train in one before another is introduced. Another, is collectively the order in which they are learned. These three aspects of kata training are inextricably intertwined within each system. And while each system will have, to some degree, its own logic as to how their kata are taught, this logic does not necessarily carry over to other systems. The Shito Ryu approach to kata, in my view, is fundamentally at odds with the way kata were taught in the late 1800s. I would also argue the way Shito Ryu teaches kata today precludes most students from ever gaining any skill necessary to utilize kata movements for effective fighting.

The Matsubayashi approach, on the other hand, is, in my opinion, much more in accordance with the old way that kata was taught. Compared to Shito Ryu, there are just so many fewer kata. I don't think the evidence shows that the order they are taught in, between the two systems, "closely resembles" one another. But more important, the Shito Ryu approach to kata is just fundamentally different, in my view, than the Matsubayshi approach, that any such comparison is a stretch.

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The information from the table above comes from the following sites:

Shito Kai

http://www.shitoryu.org/main_frm.htm (under Skills, then Grading)

http://shitokai.com/pdf/Shitokai-Syllabuses/SyllabusBinder.pdf

Seito Shito Ryu

(This is a list of authorized kata, by time training, for tournaments.)

http://www.seitoshitoryu.com/data/vancouver_taikai_2011_rulebook_100926.pdf

Itosu Kai

http://roninscotland.4t.com/photo3.html

Kuniba Kai

http://www.kunibakai.org/Kata%20Shokai.htm

Hayashi Ha (Descends from Teruo Hayashi)

No link - The information is based on my experience

[Ueshirokarate]

You can't judge kata difficulty on the length of time it takes to perform it. I assure you that Naihanchi Sho is far more difficult that Fukyugata Ichi and it takes me less time to do. Moreover, what I said was the katas that are very similar come in the same sequence. I did not state that we had all the same katas in exactly the same order. i.e.:

When looking at the respective orders of these two systems, it is clear that Pinan (designed as beginner kata) are at the beginning, and Chinto and Gojushiho come much later at higher ranks. And we can also see it is common to find Shito Ryu systems with both Rohai and Matsukaze (Wankan) in the middle.

Incidentally, every Matsubayashi school in the world, whether it is connected to the Nagamine Hombu, the Ueshiro lineage and/or most others not directly related to either, perform kata exactly the same way that Nagamine did 50 years ago. Matsubayashi karate is not about flash for tournment in "the era of pauses and numerous slow movements", it is about practicing Okinawan Karate the way it was created to use only in the event of absolute necessity. That is our tradition and it is at the core of the style.

[Yodo]

As far as I understand, every move in kata includes hundreds of hidden moves.

The kata was just the default setup, which then would be configured with teacher and student into full setup.