Kata - What's it all for?

[Cayuga Karate]

Sojobo wrote:

I'm in my 4th decade of training Wado and I can assure you that there is a logic behind the sequence

.

Congratulations on a long career in Wado. I am sure you have insight that outsiders such as myself do not.

You make the case that there is assuredly a logic that Otsuka used in deciding the order of how kata were to be taught in his system. However, that does not refute the points Dobbersky, Shadowspawn and I have made above. We have pointed out that there is no obvious order in which kata should be taught and that each founder of a system, especially those that learned kata from different masters, as Otsuka did, had to devise an order themselves. The choices made in determining those orders were, to some extent, subjective. Nobody has argued there was no logic in these decisions. I don't believe any of us believe that.

What I find interesting in when I looking at the order of the kata in Wado Ryu that you have provided above, I find information in support of the points made by Dobbersky, Shadowspawn and myself.

I believe the evidence is pretty clear that Otsuka learned kata, from among others, Mabuni and Funakoshi. And when one looks at the order of kata taught in systems that descend from these teachers, one finds that Chinto and Kusanku are typically taught after Jitte and Bassai Dai. But Otsuka chose to introduce them in a different order where Bassai and Jitte are introduced after Kusanku and Chinto.

Again, the key point is that there is really no inherent logic for masters to rely on when determining the order kata are introduced, and that we should expect different masters, therefore to come up with different orders based on subjective considerations.

This discussion began when Dobbersky wrote the following:

For Wado (as this is where I had most experience of traditional Kata) Kushanku usually [is taught] after the Pinan series, then Naihanchi, then Chinto. But the same kata are different position in Shotokan or Shito Ryu.

I believe that your statement above supports this view.

To which I responded:

I think any order of kata is, to some extent, arbitrary [amended as subjective]. The history appears pretty clear, that 100 years ago and earlier, a person might only 3, or at most 5 kata. The way in which we practice kata today, with so many, is a relatively recent innovation.

We shouldn't expect any conformity across various systems on the order in which kata are introduced.

And I added the obvious point that even within specific systems, such as Wado, we should anticipate that the order of the kata taught will likely vary to some extent across different teachers in different schools, despite the specified sequence handed down by Otsuka.

I thank you for your response where you quoted Otsuka. Any original source is greatly appreciated.

But being new to Wado, I was hoping for a bit more information, if it is available. You provided Otsuka's direction on the sequence of Pinan, Kushanku, Naihanchi, Seishan and Chinto. This set of kata, appears from some Google queries, to be taught prior to a student achieving Shodan, and likely taught prior to a student testing for Nidan.

I was hoping you could also provide Otsuka's direction on the remainder of the kata in Wado Ryu, those taught after this set, specifically Wanshu, Bassai, Jitte, Jion, Niseishi and Rohai. It would be very interesting to know what Otsuka's thoughts were on how long students would typically train before being introduced to each of these additional kata generally not taught prior to Shodan.

Thank you for whatever information you can provide.

-Cayuga Karate

[Cayuga Karate]

Ueshirokarate wrote:

Point was that two styles with very similar katas ordered them in pretty much the same way

I am not sure that your point regarding the order of kata taught in Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu and Shito Ryu is necessarily accurate. Perhaps you could provide the order of Matsubayashi kata taught in your system so I could make a relatively informed comparison.

Most of my 36 years in karate have been in Shito Ryu and I have had the great fortune to train under teachers in Hayashi-ha, Seito Shito Ryu, Itosukai, and Shitokai. My current rank comes from a long term Shukokai teacher.

I would like to contrast common orders of Shito Ryu kata with your Matsubayashi system. I think there are substantial differences.

Other styles may have katas named the same and with some similarities, but they are very different in many ways so you can't really compare them to prove the arbitrary nature of kata order. For one style's Kusanku can be far more difficult and intricate than another style's. The only way to really order a sequence of kata is to do so in order of difficulty

Once I have the order of kata taught in your dojo, I can better address this issue of "difficulty" regarding order. I don't see much evidence supporting this concept.

-Cayuga Karate

[sojobo]

I was hoping you could also provide Otsuka's direction on the remainder of the kata in Wado Ryu, those taught after this set, specifically Wanshu, Bassai, Jitte, Jion, Niseishi and Rohai. It would be very interesting to know what Otsuka's thoughts were on how long students would typically train before being introduced to each of these additional kata generally not taught prior to Shodan.

-Cayuga Karate

That one's easy - eventually - he didn't teach them!

Wado was a continuous work in progress for Otsuka sensei and whilst Kata like Wanshu, Jion and Jitte etc., were recorded (at the budokukan) as part of the School's syllabus - truth is - he actually pared down the amount of kata he taught as his style developed.

In what most westerners know as Otuska Wado time - he didn't teach anything beyond Chinto - insisting it was not necessary

Sojobo

[sojobo]

Again, the key point is that there is really no inherent logic for masters to rely on when determining the order kata are introduced, and that we should expect different masters, therefore to come up with different orders based on subjective considerations.

Except of course if the master of the style was already Menkyo Kaiden in a Japanese Koryu Bujutsu - who had a pretty good idea as to where he wanted to take "his" style of karate...

That would be very "objective" I would have thought.?

Sojobo

[Cayuga Karate]

Sojobu wrote:

Wado was a continuous work in progress for Otsuka sensei and whilst Kata like Wanshu, Jion and Jitte etc., were recorded (at the budokukan) as part of the School's syllabus - truth is - he actually pared down the amount of kata he taught as his style developed.

In what most westerners know as Otuska Wado time - he didn't teach anything beyond Chinto - insisting it was not necessary

I don't imagine that anything I write will in any way convince you that you are supporting the very points we have made above, but your argument here, in my opinion, fully supports the notion that the order of kata are not inherent, but indeed quite subjective.

If I understand you correctly, Otsuka was taught a series of kata that included Bassai, Rohai, Wanshu, Jitte, Jion and Niseishi. These kata apparently were once part of his curriculum. In fact, they appear to be routinely practiced by numerous Wado systems around the world.

It his later years, Otsuka's order of kata, a "work in progress", changed such that Otsuka dropped six kata from his curriculum. This, by the way, appears to be much like Funakoshi, who in the master text, included only 15 kata that he had been taught, excluding a number that he known at the time.

Otsuka not only made decisions about the order of kata, but also chose to drop quite a number of kata that his students wanted to continue to practice.

Now I may be mistaken in my interpretation of your statements. It may be that Otsuka never had these kata as part of his system, but knew them and recorded them, and after his death, his students then added them to the curriculum. However, whether it happened one way, or the other is irrelevant.

What is relevant is that appears to be no recorded order that these six kata were to be taught in, at least from Otsuka. This, to a remarkable degree, illustrates the point we have been making that the order of these kata is indeed quite subjective.

In Wado Ryu, in a strict sense, there can be no inherent order for how these kata are taught, since they were supposed to have been dropped from the system. In scores, if not hundreds of dojos that descend from Otsuka, there are six kata in which there was not passed down in an order to teach them.

And you write further, that if Otsuka had his way, even more kata might have been dropped.

I believe many might find your evidence compelling. It fully supports the concept that there is no inherent order to the kata that were handed down. In actuality, it seems that once a master teaches a kata, even one that he eventually will not want to be practiced in his system, there is no turning back. It will survive. And when and where it will be taught will likely be at the whim of the teacher of a dojo, since there is clearly no guidance from above regarding when to teach it.

-Cayuga Karate

[/u]

[Ueshirokarate]

Once I have the order of kata taught in your dojo, I can better address this issue of "difficulty" regarding order. I don't see much evidence supporting this concept.

-Cayuga Karate

The order of kata in Matsubayashi is identical in every Matsubayashi dojo in every part of the world and has been since the system was founded. You can google it in a second if you really want to find out, as I did with Shito Ryu's Are there differences between Shito and Matsubayashi ryu? Of course there are. However, the differences between our "shared" katas is much less than with other styles. Consider our Wankan kata to Shito Ryu's Wankan (Matsukaze):

SR's Matsukaze:

MR's Wankan:

Now compare those two to Shotokan's Wankan:

Or this version which is closer to Shito or Matsubayashi, but lacks nekoashi dachi, which makes it slightly more approachable to a beginner:

The katas in Matsubayashi that are close to those in Shito (like Wankan and Matsukaze), are almost in exactly the same order. Shito has many more katas that Matsubayashi, but that doesn't change the sequence of those that we share.

[Ueshirokarate]

It may also be helpful to look at Rohai:

Shito:

Matsubayashi:

Wado:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=_53Dd3f8NBk

It comes after Wankan in both Shito and Matsubayashi styles.

[sojobo]

In Wado Ryu, in a strict sense, there can be no inherent order for how these kata are taught, since they were supposed to have been dropped from the system. In scores, if not hundreds of dojos that descend from Otsuka, there are six kata in which there was not passed down in an order to teach them.

And you write further, that if Otsuka had his way, even more kata might have been dropped.

I believe many might find your evidence compelling. It fully supports the concept that there is no inherent order to the kata that were handed down. In actuality, it seems that once a master teaches a kata, even one that he eventually will not want to be practiced in his system, there is no turning back. It will survive. And when and where it will be taught will likely be at the whim of the teacher of a dojo, since there is clearly no guidance from above regarding when to teach it.

-Cayuga Karate

Actually, when I was referring to the order that Kata was taught within Wado - it was up to and including Chinto (for which - as previously explained is not arbitrary).

I see nothing wrong with your logic re Bassai and beyond as it were, but here is a little more info from the horse’s mouth:

According to Ohgami sensei, when the “Technical System of Wado Ryu” was first registered at the Butukokai (Kyoto) in 1939 it listed the Pinan Kata, Kushanku, Naihanchi, Seishan and Chinto (1 to 9 in that order).

The registration was revised at the Tojo Butukukai (between 1942 and 1945) to include; Wanshu, Bassai, Jitte, Jion, Niseishi, Rohai and Suparinpei.

On Ohgami’s Website he actually shows them in this order, but I would need to confirm with him whether there was any significance attached to this, or whether it was simply the order in which he wrote it on his web site.

http://www.wadokai.se/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=10&Itemid=10

So, why are they still taught in most Wado groups today – despite the fact that toward the end of his career Otsuka preferred not to teach them?

As I understand it, there are two main reasons – the first was that because he had taught some of his earlier students (like Suzuki sensei) who travelled overseas – these guys continued to teach them, whereas Otsuka had stopped back in Japan.

The second reason came about (I believe) as a result university Wado Karate teams in Japan who, under pressure when competing with their Shotokan rivals, decided to resurrect the erstwhile “discarded” kata.

My sensei always says of Kata like Wanshu, that are good to learn, but they only really serve to re-enforce the "principles" found in the first 9.

Sojobo

[sojobo]

It may also be helpful to look at Rohai:

Shito:

Matsubayashi:

Wado:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=_53Dd3f8NBk

It comes after Wankan in both Shito and Matsubayashi styles.

Ueshirokarate

Ohgami details the Wado version as "Itosu" Rohai Shodan.

I dont think that the Shito version is Shodan.

Sojobo

[Dobbersky]

In Wado Ryu, in a strict sense, there can be no inherent order for how these kata are taught, since they were supposed to have been dropped from the system. ..............

And you write further, that if Otsuka had his way, even more kata might have been dropped.

.............................

-Cayuga Karate

....................

According to Ohgami sensei, when the “Technical System of Wado Ryu” was first registered at the Butukokai (Kyoto) in 1939 it listed the Pinan Kata, Kushanku, Naihanchi, Seishan and Chinto (1 to 9 in that order).

The registration was revised at the Tojo Butukukai (between 1942 and 1945) to include; Wanshu, Bassai, Jitte, Jion, Niseishi, Rohai and Suparinpei.

.......................................

The second reason came about (I believe) as a result university Wado Karate teams in Japan who, under pressure when competing with their Shotokan rivals, decided to resurrect the erstwhile “discarded” kata.

.......................

Sojobo

I know talking to other Wado Ryu Karateka, Suparinpei is considered to many, as the "lost" Kata of Wado as a very small minority of Dojos practice this kata.

That said, going back to a Modern example of Enshin Karate, they only have 7 official Kata!

I think Toon Ryu (yes it is a genuine style of Karate) has 5 official Kata