Kata - What's it all for?

[tallgeese]

Really, almost every school I've been in, outside pure competition places for mma, have trained some sort of methods for multiple attackers in a somewhat live format. It's very instructive.

Look, I've never said you won't learn anything from kata, I'm just saying that it is a training method devised over a hundred years ago. Maybe we need to look at modern teaching/ training/ learning models and move with the times to be more effective.

Heck, collegiate and pro level athletes have changed the way they prep drastically in 20 years. Now your asking us to prep for combat using methods that haven't changed in 5 times that?

If you don't train at a dojo who is pressing forward, ie. looking at new training methods to address problems, then don't just accept less than ideal training and keep going. Bring up ideas to your coach, most that I know are open to suggestions and research. Or, if you're unable to have your needs met that way move on. There are plenty of inventive schools pushing the edge of training. Or if you don't want to do either, look at developing a group within your current group to work on this stuff.

I had the luck to grow up under an instructor that was not only very creative at tackling the problems of training but encouraging for everyone to go out experiment and bring it back.

Still, there's no reason you can't develop this as well. Again, I'm not saying kata has NO redemptive features. Only that there are more modern, effective methods.

Now, Calvin makes a great point, and his I understand fully. He likes to do kata. You can do it forever without breaking your body up. I get that, and I fully support it. You should get out of the arts what you want. I've gotten older and wiser on this point. MA's are a highly individual in nature. Not everyone will train them all the time for self defense. For some, part of studying is about cultural or historical connection. They are great for that. One does not have to justify kata thru the lens of combat. Just understand teaching modalities that are appropriate for what you want.

[LittleW]

There are so many martial arts that everybody can find the one that fit him best. If one wants to avoid doing kata, he can choose boxing or kickboxing, where they don't have any, as far as I know.

But Karate is NOT only combat, it's kihon, kata and kumite.

And I think, it's kata, which makes it so various and interesting.

Don't vote for taking the kata out of karate. It does teach kombinations, selfdefence, and, first of all, it does teach you to controll vour body.

For sure, there won't be any real fight wich does resemble any kata completly. But is that the only reason to learn karate?

If you learn boxing, you will never be prepared, if somebody does kick you. If you learn judo, you don't learn what to, if you are kicked or hit.

But there are many boxer or judoka, who do that sports all the same.

And, if not for the kata, no Shotokan Karateka would ever learn, what to do, if being grabbed.

[brickshooter]

Really, almost every school I've been in, outside pure competition places for mma, have trained some sort of methods for multiple attackers in a somewhat live format. It's very instructive.

Look, I've never said you won't learn anything from kata, I'm just saying that it is a training method devised over a hundred years ago. Maybe we need to look at modern teaching/ training/ learning models and move with the times to be more effective.

Heck, collegiate and pro level athletes have changed the way they prep drastically in 20 years. Now your asking us to prep for combat using methods that haven't changed in 5 times that?

If you don't train at a dojo who is pressing forward, ie. looking at new training methods to address problems, then don't just accept less than ideal training and keep going. Bring up ideas to your coach, most that I know are open to suggestions and research. Or, if you're unable to have your needs met that way move on. There are plenty of inventive schools pushing the edge of training. Or if you don't want to do either, look at developing a group within your current group to work on this stuff.

I had the luck to grow up under an instructor that was not only very creative at tackling the problems of training but encouraging for everyone to go out experiment and bring it back.

Still, there's no reason you can't develop this as well. Again, I'm not saying kata has NO redemptive features. Only that there are more modern, effective methods.

Now, Calvin makes a great point, and his I understand fully. He likes to do kata. You can do it forever without breaking your body up. I get that, and I fully support it. You should get out of the arts what you want. I've gotten older and wiser on this point. MA's are a highly individual in nature. Not everyone will train them all the time for self defense. For some, part of studying is about cultural or historical connection. They are great for that. One does not have to justify kata thru the lens of combat. Just understand teaching modalities that are appropriate for what you want.

No, you have a good point. Just testing your knowledge base to see if you know what you're talking about.

[sojobo]

I think it is virtually impossible to bridge the gap between Kata and Kumite, unless you have an instructor that knows how and sadly there are very few of them about.

As such, I agree with Tallgeese that ultimately there is little point in practicing Kata for combative reasons.

Sad, but true.

Sojobo

[brickshooter]

I think it is virtually impossible to bridge the gap between Kata and Kumite, unless you have an instructor that knows how and sadly there are very few of them about.

As such, I agree with Tallgeese that ultimately there is little point in practicing Kata for combative reasons.

Sad, but true.

Sojobo

Interesting enough, I don't see that much of a difference between kata & kumite. Most of the things I do in kumite comes directly from kata.

However, if you favor kumite that is more free flowing, take a look at the more modernized katas from Ashihara Karate.

[ShoriKid]

After a lot of years training in traditional styles and having always had some open minded, adding in things that don't seem "traditional" at first turned out to be on the money. Heavy bag work, double ended bag work, lots of partnered work etc were always important. Stealing what was good from somewhere else and seeing how it can both improve what you're doing and how it fits into the frame work of your existing skills. All more traditional than you would at first think.

The fixation on kata as a primary thing to spend class time on is something that I don't think earlier karatemen would have advocated. It eats up a lot of class time though and lets the instructor get around to a lot of students. Drills, working on fundamentals and two man sets were where most of the time would be spent. Kata is for when you don't have partners to work with and to instill movements that have good application (something you have to put a lot of work into). When you have training partners you should be using them. Time devoted to kata should be enough to learn them well enough to practice on your own. Then get the occasional correction. Along with that working out two man drills that break down the applications. Lastly, kata, to me is something that will allows you to continue training after you've gotten too old to bang around every night.

All of this is opinion of course and, combine with $2 will get you a coffee at the corner store. But, as tallgeese said, martial arts are an individual thing. As long as you aren't selling you're individual thing as the be all, end all of MA and deriding those who disagree, it's all good.

[honoluludesktop]

.........The fixation on kata as a primary thing to spend class time on is something that I don't think earlier karatemen would have advocated.........

From what I have read written on Okinawan karate training prior to Japanese karate, kata was the only means of training. Kihon, and kumite were Japanese innovations. At that time, matches were fights without conditions.

[quinteros1963]

I'll be the dissenting opinion here. I haven't done kata for years, although I did my share back in the day.

To me, kata is an outdated training modality.

It was designed for a different time and situation. Now, rather than hide bunkai and the like, we can freely practice each movement. The moving text book can replaced with repetition of actual applications. Theoretical movements can be replaced with live drilling via armored opponents, creating a more realistic feel. Tactics can be tested in randori with proper safety equipment and in proper sequence of reactions, not is partial snippets against hypothetical targets.

Look at the advances in both equipment and learning science since kata was invented. We have advanced about two hundred years in both. Are the armed forces of the world still training with flintlock pistols? Training in position warfare? Nope, firearms and tactics training has evolved. We should do the same.

Now, if one wants to practice kata for the history of the art, or cultural reasons, that's fine. Just be aware that a lot of kata were invented in the 70's, and a large chunk of what's left were modified heavily in the post WWII era, buyer beware. But it's all about what you want out of the arts. Each should get to practice for the reasons they want. But as a training aspect for fighting, kata has been surpassed by more scientifically proven methods of training due to our understanding of how human beings learn.

The other thing that MMA has done for the martial arts community is a push back to dynamic training (note that dynamic does not mean full contact constantly). This is a good thing for all martial arts, not just competitive arts.

Well said, but I think it should be preserved, but it should not be a focal point, application should.

[sensei8]

Imho, Kata gets no respect...that makes me sad.

[MasterPain]

I had never heard of bunkai before joining this site. Kata learned in conjunction with realistic bunkai seems like a good way to have 2 person drills as well as a guide to practicing them solo. But I wouldn't want it to be the main focus of what I do.