Who's values?

[Liver Punch]

Let me start by saying that I'm not a sociopath, or a vigilante, nor do I wish to emulate the lead roles from Dexter or Deathwish. I haven’t been adjudicated mentally defective, arrested, or convicted of any crime. This isn’t about being a “tough guy”, this is about freedom.

Perhaps the highest level of martial arts is one of no contact. If you are ever in a situation where you must rely on your physical technique to defend yourself or others you have made not just one, but many mistakes.

The above quote was in another thread. It's a responsible statement, it's an intelligent statement, it's a mature statement, and from the standard martial arts perspective, it's the appropriate statement. I'd tell anyone who is not a martial artist and willing to listen the exact same thing. As a martial artist, it's the way we should portray ourselves and the way we'd like the rest of the world to view us – it’s simply the standard for martial arts today. The question is as to whether or not it is my standard.

This martial arts philosophy of avoiding conflict until it's positively necessary, of winning by not fighting, and by knowing that once you're in a bad situation, you've made a lot of mistakes...these are all good things. I don't doubt, nor do I argue this fact in the grand scheme of things as it is the conventional wisdom of many martial artists with a better viewpoint on the situation than that of myself. Perhaps the issue at hand then, is that I'm not necessarily a martial artist "first".

I majored in Political Science, so much of my personal philosophy is rooted in western politics rather than traditional eastern tradition. I buy very deeply into the ideas of personal freedom and liberty and have a deep-rooted belief that I should be able to act within my legal rights at any time and place without concern that others will not act in the same fashion. This idea is the basic cornerstone of freedom and modern society as it is, and perhaps more so, how it should be.

Philosophically, this is who I am first, and the values that I hold most important. The rubric of traditional eastern philosophy and martial arts standards must therefore come in second place – there is no room for devaluation or compromise of one’s core values, a choice must be made. I'm not certain that this makes me dissimilar to the individuals who crafted most of our individual arts. While the samurai are often held in high regard throughout the martial arts, history is ignored when discuss them.

Before Japan was unified, the samurai were not held to the codes that they are now famous for. They were not noble swordsmen who held honor and procedure above all. They were soldiers. Many a samurai felt the agony of defeat without committing seppuku. Many a samurai left their soul – their sword – in its sheath while firing gunpowder-driven weapons. Many a samurai cloaked themselves in darkness, fled the battlefield, faked weakness, and acted “dishonorably” to gain an advantage in battle. The samurai did not become great for their ability to follow a code, groom themselves, and act as noblemen. The samurai became great for their ability in war. War and combat is what makes our art martial. To ignore, romanticize, and pervert history is to do a great injustice to all parties involved. For the purpose of my argument, war has always been - and always will be based largely in politics, freedom, and ideology.

Personally, I take combative risks regularly. While I do not find them to be frivolous in nature, they are tactically precarious. I live not far from a “bad” neighborhood. When I go running, I often run through it - it's got the best sidewalks in town. When I have a letter to drop off, or need to pick up an item or two, I walk through it. I'm not the same color as most of the people there, and I’m frequently harassed because of it. Though not the most intelligent maneuver, I usually hurl equally offensive language back at whomever it is that has decided to interrupt me in my business.

I've made two mistakes right there - I went into a dangerous neighborhood, and then I poked the proverbial bear - or multiple bears in some cases. Enemy territory, multiple attackers, racial tension and a big mouth equals a lot of mistakes and potential danger follows close behind. This isn’t about martial arts - even if I were unarmed and untrained...I'd still conduct myself the way I do.

It's not a matter of getting into an altercation, it's not a matter of testing one’s skills, it's a matter of testing personal freedom and liberty. It's a basic human right to walk down that street, and it's within that right to reciprocate when someone’s words become insulting. When exercising one’s personal freedom becomes a synonym for imprudence, and in turn, angst becomes a symbol of self-preservation, it is then that the expediency of martial arts has perished in a particularly demeaning and inappropriate fashion.

It is here that we've got a colossal internal (and now external) debate. Is passivity - in situations which are not self-indulgent, frivolous, or ego-driven - the proper thing to do as defined by the values of martial arts? Would the founders and creators of our individual arts wish for us to avoid all situations which may result in a righteous use of your skills? Is exercising my right to tell someone to stop being a jerk (even if I think it may result in a physical altercation) when the situation warrants it a violation of my responsibility as a martial artist? Perhaps as someone who can speak their mind without fear of the end result; it’s my responsibility to speak the truth for myself and for those who are afraid to do so.

If someone believes in personal autonomy, should martial arts be a burden and hindrance? Should I avoid the bad neighborhoods, social establishments, and unfriendly territory based solely on the fear of having to use a skill that I learned specifically for those situations?

There is no advocation on my part for unnecessary violence. What I would advocate, however, is an honest evaluation of what is and is not necessary. I started taking the martial arts to conquer fear. I feel that using the very tool I sought to help me conquer fear as a crutch to aid in additional distress to be a senseless exercise in irony.

Discuss.

[UselessDave]

For Jassling's post. I believe it on a way (not completely, but I get the point.), but I don't think it's practical enough to even aim at in real life (for most people.).

[Dobbersky]

I suppose you are correct in many ways, I as a full contact Knock-Down Karateka, in the Dojo and the Ring or on the mat (my bubble) am ready for action and act like every other person in situations like that. But when it comes to street situations its completely different. You don't walk round with your chest out starring out every person that’s walking down the street, with your fists clenched (that you would get locked up for in a soft cell). You walk with your head high, not looking for trouble, but not "acting" like a victim with your head down scurrying about like the little guy, with the glasses, out of the Police Academy series.

Sometimes showing confidence and looking like you can handle yourself IS the "Art of Fighting without Fighting" as most would-be attackers are dare I say “cowards” they look for “victims” they believe they can overpower, not the ones that look like they could beat the cr*p out of them thus preventing their escape.

Good Analogy but needs to be more open to various changes and points of view.

[honoluludesktop]

IMO, martial arts are about the technical skills that offer advantage in combat. I for one do not believe that even at its highest level, martial arts have any thing to do with morality. Although gauche to refer to HC, isn't his life proof of this? Morality is better learned in the family, and other spiritual organizations. This doesn't mean that martial arts can not be conducted in a moral manner. To this extent, the skills of Aikido may be the best, especially when used to gently put the opponent on his back as the means to neutralize an attack. For a Aikido-ka to do this is an skill at the highest level. Karate, and other striking arts also have techniques to do this, but perhaps not as apparent as having gently placed your opponent on his back.

[jassling]

Deleted.

Edited June 26, 2011 by jassling

[Groinstrike]

Interesting discussion. LP raises some interesting points. As was said earlier in the thread, simply not acting like a victim can keep you out of many unpleasant situations. If nothing else martial artists are generally confident people and that confidence(not arrogance) when displayed can send signals to would be attackers that you know how to handle yourself. By going through these neighborhoods in a manner that shows that "yes i am jogging through a potentially hostile enviroment, i understand the potential dangers and am preparred for them." This attitude is quite possibly the best defense against potential violence.

I do not recommend going out of one's way to find trouble. But if you find yourself in "bad" part of town, the best thing that you can do is to walk tall, make eye contact, and keep your head on a swivel. A mugger is more than likely not going to attack someone that is carrying themselves in this manner.

[MasterPain]

I'll skip over the implications of prefacing your opinion with a denial of being a sociopath. I absolutely love the First Amendment. It gives me the right to peacefully be a jerk in word and print, to gather with other jerks, and to worship the Flying Spaghetti Monster. It also gives people the right to peacefully disagree, even if the words toward Pastafarians get nasty. Our government is far from perfect, but the 1st Amendment is one of the most perfect concepts ever created by mankind.

I have a legal right to say what I feel. However, I will sometimes stay silent in the name of avoiding conflict. On a case-by-case basis, it can be sensible to ask yourself if it is worth risking violence. Usually the answer is no. But when this becomes a trend, day by day, you are giving up what heroes have died for. There are times when I will let things slide. If I am unlikely to see someone again, they can say what they want and I'll ignore it. But, I live in a town with a population of 200 or so, I can not allow anyone around here to walk on me. I would risk violence to avoid anyone thinking they can push me around here, because I have to walk my dog past their house every day. I will not do so hanging my head. I also like the Castle Doctrine. Read up on it.

I know the Illinois self defense laws pretty well, and feel that all martial artists should have a good understanding of local law. If a redneck with a GED can learn it, so can you. Adherence to self defense law can have a bigger effect on an individual than their personal martial philosophy, so they should be studied.

I also believe that anyone who claims to be a pacifist should be wedgied daily, by a smaller and weaker person. It'll keep you honest. Japanese pacifists in WWII shot over the enemies heads. Now THAT is hardcore.

[tallgeese]

Great points, LP, and everyone else for that matter. The idea of not acting like a victim that GS brings up is very valid for this sort of matter as well.

I don't think anyone can deny the right to walk wherever you want, ect. I do think that at some point practically this becomes problematic if you don't want to have to test your skills.

Now, I don't know if this means that you should or shouldn't go ahead and do it anyway. It's going to be a personal choice. Just don't be surprised if bad things come to pass.

Also, if you're going to advocate certain rights in that fashion, don't lead other unsuspecting persons into the fray with you. They too have the right to simply look the other way.

For me, I avoid the mess. I hate the idea of all the paperwork I'll end up doing for supporting my rights when I start sending .45 rounds down range. If certain segments of society feel the need to impose the dark ages in their neighborhoods then so be it. Bring that garbage to mine and we'll have problems.

I'm certain the founders of the arts really didn't think of it along those lines. Let's face it, go back far enough and people were really codifying these things to kill other human beings in battle. As LP pointed out, all the addition of moral compulsion came about later as a method to keep reign on all these veteran killers they had running about the countryside making money on teaching their skills to others.

Anyone thinking about the "proper" use of the art would have probably turned up just before Funikoshi's time. A relativity recent development if we consider that martial arts have pretty much been around since Thagg hit Grog upside the head with a rock.

It's continued, I believe, to be a focus of the arts since because as a society we use them far less for combat every day than those before us did. We kill things with cruise missiles now. Or at least firearms. Occasionally an edged weapon. That's not to say it doesn't happen or we shouldn't keep the focus, but just a statement of reality. Even kids don't fight on the playground like they used to. What was once a time honor tradition, as short a time ago as my school days, is now forbidden under pain of expulsion and legal entanglements.

So, it's up to you. But if you're going to make that decision, better to do so with confidence and skill than not.

[bushido_man96]

I think you've made a lot of good points here, LiverPunch. Like you, I'm not terribly attached to the Eastern ideals that tend to be packaged with most Martial Arts (and a nice rundown of the real Samurai, by the way...).

I don't think its right to have to live in fear of going somewhere. But, I do think it is prudent to evaluate whether or not going a certain place is worth the risk/reward of doing so. But, once one has evaluated and made the decision, then by all means, proceed. Along with this decision, though, is accountability. I don't mean that because someone goes through a bad neighborhood and gets assaulted, that they go what they deserved...I don't mean that at all. I just wouldn't expect such a person to act surprised about it if it happened.

I think part of what you discussed here becomes so because the bad people of the world start kind of claiming territory by acting in such ways that they know others will stay away due to the fear of what may come. Self-preservation is paramount to survival, and avoidance is a great path to self-preservation.

I guess, after going on in a round-about fashion here, I would say that after what you've revealed about your personality and beliefs, that I'd still view you as a Martial Artist regardless.

[Lee M]

Avoiding is the most important skills - its what we spend the least amount of time in the dojo because its not exciting and most of us probably don't have alot of knowledge apart from walk away and avoid a situation.

Geoff Thompson said "you teach a child to avoid cars on the road, by safely crossing the road, rather than teaching them what to do if they did get hit"