Why do you have to belong to a style

[bushido_man96]

I don't want to derail the thread too much, but I will say that just because something doesn't work for you now doesn't mean you should "throw it away", and just because something does work for you now doesn't mean it will always work for you. I feel that the very statement of "throw away what doesn't work" is counter productive to the entire ideal of always working to advance your art and building on what you know.

Solid post! I can think of several moves and concepts I've learned over the years and initially thought were useless/don't work for me. Yet, as my skill increased (and of those around me as well) I ended up using the very things I had thought were unnecessary. Had I just thrown them away, I may never have been able to step up to the next level each time.

When I see the "throw away" line from Bruce Lee, it usually makes me think of forms. Although Lee was familiar with forms early on in his training, it is well documented how he felt about forms in the latter part of his training, along with the "aliveness" aspect he wanted so much out of training. Along with that, we see how certain styles are always bound to the curriculum they teach, be it forms, one-steps, a certain way to spar, etc. I think these are mainly the things Lee didn't like, and are likely the root of his "throw away" quote.

I think you just opened a can-o-worms. Might as well start fishing.

Hehe, I may have. I'll go fishing if you want to!

I don't claim to be any kind of Lee expert, or to know what he would have been thinking at times. That's just how I read it from what I have read. I'm sure there are others who knew him personally that might be able to tell me differently, and that's cool with me.

I will say this, too. Lee managed to say a lot of things that were pretty ambiguous. And I think that was for a reason, too.

[Wastelander]

I believe what is meant by this, is not to necessarily discard anything that doesn't work for you right now. What i believe is meant by this is to be wary of techniques, stances, forms, etc. that do not directly contribute to your efficiency as a martial artist. Beware of techniques that have either become outdated or overly complicated. Just my opinion however.

The problem is that it specifically says "throw it away" and people see that as "this doesn't work for me so I'll just forget it"--you may interpret it as being wary (which is fine--wariness is good, in my opinion) but I think that most people take it for what it says, verbatim.

[DWx]

Dave Moore, From a different Forum asked the following Question, I thought it was an excellent question but didn't want to take away Dave's ownership of the topic, Thanks Dave

This has been puzzling me for a while

Why does a Karate club have to belong to any particular style? a question that has been thrown at me a few times by people who practice the major ones who always ask "is it Shotokan, is it Goju ryu, Wado ryu" and then raise an eye brow when I say no. One high ranking guy said "you know you will never be recognised by the major styles when you get a black belt"

I have come around to the thought now that I don't really care who the club are affilliated to as long as I get something from the training and find the stuff taught usefull and wonder why I should have to be part of the style issue. Surely if I am getting something from the training then why should it matter which style I belong to or practice.

your thoughts please

I think this, while possibly thought provoking, really comes down to a matter of semantics. Unless you have never entered a MA school and come up with a fighting system all your own, you will be drawing your technique base from somewhere. So whether you decide to say, "your training Dobbersky's Karate" or "Shotokan Karate mixed with some other things," is really quite irrelevant. Personally, I would want my students to know how their technique base was derived. I think it's only proper to pay that respect to those who taught me.

That in itself is also good from the perspective that if your students want to go away and develop a particular area of their training by working with someone else, they can do because they know what style to look in. If they want to develop the striking that they've learned from Shotokan, they know not to go looking for an Aikido teacher. Same as with if, for some reason, they can't train with you anymore they can find something to train in which is close to home.

[Jay]

Interesting, there are several points and things I want to cover in this post so forgive me if it doesn't flow very well.

I think that some styles and organisations are born out of the need for recognisation and importance. Some are simply born out of convenience just because you need to name what you are doing i.e Jeet Kune Do which Bruce Lee regretted naming because he felt the name was too limiting in itself.

If I liken martial art organisations to a university degree although you may have the intellegence, people have a need to be recognised by an authority in order for other people to accept them for some jobs. This then subsequently gives other people 'confidence' in their abilitys. At best its just artificial because you don't know how credible the authority is. Plus most people are sheep and don't feel comfortable unless someone else 'says' that this person is okay and credible. This is a big problem in life in general. Just because someone is not part of an organisation does not mean they are no good. But they will find it difficult to be recognised as a 'brand' which is what Brian stated. People that open schools to make money generally do better being attached to a 'brand'. For instance a McDonalds tends to do better than an regular fast food joint because of the security it tends to offer people.

To cover a few points on JKD itself, there are lots of responses so I will do it in a numbered fashion. I hope to write an article on it in the future, I have done a fair amount of research on the topic just because I want to clarify in my mind what Bruce Lee actually meant.

1)Lots of Bruce Lee's notes are contradictory, most were undated and just collated into his notes as we see them today. He was developing constantly and didn't plan to take his notes and put them into a book. A large deal of what is in the Tao of JKD is plagarized. If you have the other books that make up those notes you can see it, of which I have some. In order to undertand some of the notes you need to know the time in which they were written which can be hard to find. Alot of Bruce's Philosophy was a marketing tool to make him well recognised.

2)'The truth in combat is different for every individual. Absorb what is useful, Discard what is useless, add what is essentially your own'

Again this can be taken in two ways but I think the basis is that if you cannot do it at the moment it shouldn't be in your system. This doesn't mean you shouldn't work on your weaknesses and even revisit the techniques to fix them but in combat if you can't make them work then don't use them.

3)People continue to train what Bruce was doing in 1970 because JKD became so fragmented with people changing lots of things. His family tried to preserve the art because some people were teaching stuff that didn't look at all like what Bruce was doing.

4)Bruce Lee clearly states here in a letter I believe to be to one of his chinatown students Jerry Poteet who asked to teach kenpo with JKD. That JKD is separate from other things although doesn't say it is separate from other 'styles' or that it is itself a 'style'

http://originaljkd.net/xandy.html

That covers a few points the rest can be saved until later.

Edit-Masterpain you stated the following 'Mr. Lee himself said that if any of his ideas become outdated or unuseful, they should be discarded as well.'

I don't remember reading such a quote but it wouldn't suprise me if it was there, do you have a source? I would like it for my research.

[Groinstrike]

Interesting, there are several points and things I want to cover in this post so forgive me if it doesn't flow very well.

I think that some styles and organisations are born out of the need for recognisation and importance. Some are simply born out of convenience just because you need to name what you are doing i.e Jeet Kune Do which Bruce Lee regretted naming because he felt the name was too limiting in itself.

If I liken martial art organisations to a university degree although you may have the intellegence, people have a need to be recognised by an authority in order for other people to accept them for some jobs. This then subsequently gives other people 'confidence' in their abilitys. At best its just artificial because you don't know how credible the authority is. Plus most people are sheep and don't feel comfortable unless someone else 'says' that this person is okay and credible. This is a big problem in life in general. Just because someone is not part of an organisation does not mean they are no good. But they will find it difficult to be recognised as a 'brand' which is what Brian stated. People that open schools to make money generally do better being attached to a 'brand'. For instance a McDonalds tends to do better than an regular fast food joint because of the security it tends to offer people.

To cover a few points on JKD itself, there are lots of responses so I will do it in a numbered fashion. I hope to write an article on it in the future, I have done a fair amount of research on the topic just because I want to clarify in my mind what Bruce Lee actually meant.

1)Lots of Bruce Lee's notes are contradictory, most were undated and just collated into his notes as we see them today. He was developing constantly and didn't plan to take his notes and put them into a book. A large deal of what is in the Tao of JKD is plagarized. If you have the other books that make up those notes you can see it, of which I have some. In order to undertand some of the notes you need to know the time in which they were written which can be hard to find. Alot of Bruce's Philosophy was a marketing tool to make him well recognised.

2)'The truth in combat is different for every individual. Absorb what is useful, Discard what is useless, add what is essentially your own'

Again this can be taken in two ways but I think the basis is that if you cannot do it at the moment it shouldn't be in your system. This doesn't mean you shouldn't work on your weaknesses and even revisit the techniques to fix them but in combat if you can't make them work then don't use them.

3)People continue to train what Bruce was doing in 1970 because JKD became so fragmented with people changing lots of things. His family tried to preserve the art because some people were teaching stuff that didn't look at all like what Bruce was doing.

4)Bruce Lee clearly states here in a letter I believe to be to one of his chinatown students Jerry Poteet who asked to teach kenpo with JKD. That JKD is separate from other things although doesn't say it is separate from other 'styles' or that it is itself a 'style'

http://originaljkd.net/xandy.html

That covers a few points the rest can be saved until later.

Edit-Masterpain you stated the following 'Mr. Lee himself said that if any of his ideas become outdated or unuseful, they should be discarded as well.'

I don't remember reading such a quote but it wouldn't suprise me if it was there, do you have a source? I would like it for my research.

I may have paraphrased that line from lee, he does say on pg. 208 of Tao of JKD that "IF people say Jeet Kune Do is different from "this" or "that", then let the name of Jeet Kune Do be wiped out, for that is what it is, just a name. Please dont fuss over it"

What lee meant by this can be debated, i believe that he didn't want JKD to fall into the rigid structure of martial arts, he wanted JKD to encompass everything and the only "style" that should be attributed to it is the personal self expression of the martial artist.

[sensei8]

What I know about JKD, as a JKD practitioner, could be put in a small thimble. Having said that, when I hear "discard and use what's useful" I think it's a wise thing, but it's not always a permanent thing because as we mature as martial artists, we can now use what was once discarded before.

I'll be as bold to say this...Bruce left way too soon, and in that, I believe that every practitioner of the martial arts is stuck, from time to time, on assuming just exactly what Bruce meant.

[Jay]

What I know about JKD, as a JKD practitioner, could be put in a small thimble. Having said that, when I hear "discard and use what's useful" I think it's a wise thing, but it's not always a permanent thing because as we mature as martial artists, we can now use what was once discarded before.

I'll be as bold to say this...Bruce left way too soon, and in that, I believe that every practitioner of the martial arts is stuck, from time to time, on assuming just exactly what Bruce meant.

Definitely, I learn new things about old things all the time

The problem I have is that he meant something and I really wan't to know what angle he approached things from. To me its like a puzzle. Its in my personality to know 'why' and if I do not, it severely annoys me. I just have to know.

[Lee M]

You need base arts is terms of your foundation.

Allot of people have to be part of something to gain grades.

This can create challlenges especially in the past due to differences.

If you train mixed styles for example.