Lineage, why is it so important?

[Dobbersky]

I wonder where the importance of lineage comes from?

I see from various schools where x comes from y which comes from a, b & c.

Now I looked into mine and there is a gap from my sensei to Ashihara, namely due to I no longer communicate with him. But my Wado and Tang Soo lineage is proven direct to the founders. Does this mean I'm not a genuine Ashihara Karateka? I know I'm not NIKO registered but then my Karate, although Ashihara to the core is not pure. Too much has been added or removed.

Even the likes of Modern Martial Arts like Krav Maga have Lineage to older arts!

Does not having a lineage spanning centuries not make it a good martial art?

Does it mean that it makes the school a McDojo?

[sensei8]

I think lineage is as important, or the lack thereof, to each individual practitioner of the martial arts as they feel.

Some live by them and some don't. Some say if you have lineage, you're on solid ground. However, if you don't have any lineage, you're standing on quicksand.

Everyone who values lineage seems to always add the word "Verifiable" to it. Imho, that's fine, but it's an illusion. Why? JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE SAID SO!!

When I look at the Shindokan lineage, I have no idea about the accuracy of anything before I WAS BORN. I have to trust what my Soke has said, and more importantly, I have to trust what our Soke has written in the Shindokan Densho, Hand Scrolls, and By-Laws.

I know the Shindokan lineage is absolutely accurate from when I showed up and started taking lessons from my Dai-Soke as well as my Soke going forward. Everything else, I've just got to trust what those two have told me, as well as what I've heard from my other fellow Shindokanists. I can personally verify the Shindokan lineage from Soke down because I've touched them, I've handled them. Before Soke, I've no personal experience to validate the lineage....I must trust!! It's not blind trust, because I believe Soke and Dai-Soke,!!

How do you know if your lineage is accurate? How do you know if your lineage is verifiable? How do you know if your lineage has been accurately verified?

My lineage is only as important to me depending on the context of the discussion/conversation. Other than that, it is what it is, I take no interest beyond that.

[Dobbersky]

Sensei8, excellent response, I suppose it is down to the individual.

I suppose in years to come, when I've passed on and someone is searching for lineage, it will stop with my Sensei for Ashihara, I can't find his instructor as he moved to Australia, I know he's called Steve/Stephen/Steven (surname I can't recall) and is/was a senior rank in one of the Shotokan Orgs from there as he moved back to Shotokan.

My Wado will be back to Japan and my Tang So will go back to Korea

But will the style be separated into 3 sources by then or will it be considered as 1 style? With no need to worry who I trained with?

[honoluludesktop]

Lineage implies organizational standing, social standing, and status. It opens doors, and in some cases provides opportunities. On the other hand it doesn't guarantee that your training is special or better. And lineage can also close the doors of your mind to alternate ways of training.

Most of us do not have the opportunity or the knowledge to chose and train under a great teacher from a established "ryu". We take what is available at the time, and if we are lucky........ It is only after a while, and as long as we are willing to look around, keep our eyes, ears, and mind open, we learn enough to have understanding. But for most, this is not necessary, or even desirable.

I have so so lineage. My teacher studied, under the founder of Wadoryu. The founder, Otsuka studied under Funakoshi, and a Jujitsu master. When my teacher moved to America to teach, he left Wadoryu, and founded his own Ryu. So while my lineage of teachers is prestigious, the connection my Sensei had with the second generation of modern karate teachers is lost after his passing. So I have no branded organizational lineage.

If you train in a koryu, then lineage is very important. Practicing a koryu is like maintaining an antique. All that left is adherence to some of its outward forms, and whatever match skills you can achieve with these forms. Departing from lineage in this case is unacceptable, because like an antique, the form is more valuable then its use in the real world. If by kata you train to cut at a joint in an antique armor, you are not likely to change the kata because no one wears armor today. If you have a 1000 year old chair, it is unlikely that you will sit in it, or change its shape in any way.

Often lineage is exaggerated. A seminar with a great teacher, or claiming descendants from someone in a organization even when you didn't study under them for any substantial period of time is misleading. If that were the case, I too could claim direct association with Otsuka, Kanazawa, Asai, Shiyomitsu, and many other great teachers whose seminars I attended.

So is lineage important in other then a kyoru? Most of the time no. Sometimes, if you want to associate in the "world of karate", or take pride with your place in the "society of karate", then perhaps. Of course, if you already have lineage, a great teacher, and are committed to your art, then "yes", lineage is important. In any case, after you pass, it matters not at all.

[Ashley]

Damn, when I read the topic, I thought it was about the computer video game Lineage... I think I am obsessed

Sorry for offtopic.

[sensei8]

I've lost count of just how many different lineage charts I've ever looked at. Some lineage charts are pretty straight forward, and in that, they're easy to read. However, there are some lineage charts that are pretty difficult to read, so much so that it might require a degree in hieroglyphics.

Of the two lineage charts below, which one do "you" think is easier to read/follow...

http://www.keishinkan-karate.com/796bb150.jpg

http://www.akbba.com/akchart.gif

[bushido_man96]

The thing about a lineage is that it has to start somewhere. Whether its 300 years ago or 30 days ago, it has to start. I think what is most important is that it is honest and not engineered. I don't care how old it is, really. It has to be honest. Beyond that, whatever is being taught needs to be competent and practical, and taught well. After that, lineage is just a window dressing, really.

[UselessDave]

It is important mostly if it is for one a prove about your style's prestige. Perhaps one can be genuinely interested, but if the training works and a practitioner feels that he can trust to what he's been thaught, it doesn't make such a big deal, whatever it is.

[senseikellam]

Lineage implies organizational standing, social standing, and status. It opens doors, and in some cases provides opportunities. On the other hand it doesn't guarantee that your training is special or better. And lineage can also close the doors of your mind to alternate ways of training.

VERY WELL SAID!

[Shizentai]

In my opinion the most practical use of lineage should be for a beginner looking for a dojo in which to train. A beginner cannot recognize good vs. bad form, nor can he discern good from bad teaching in a field where he has no experience. At least with a lineage chart, a beginner can somewhat grasp where the principles and techniques taught in the dojo are coming from.

Sadly, I think many people (like myself) just choose a dojo at random and kind-of learn these things later on. I was lucky enough to have randomly chosen a good dojo it seems.

Of the two lineage charts below, which one do "you" think is easier to read/follow...

http://www.keishinkan-karate.com/796bb150.jpg

http://www.akbba.com/akchart.gif

I would say number one personally, but that's probably just because it has more people form my ryu on it though. I'm bad about learning lineages for other ryu. I bought a book and am reading a lot about it though.

Still, my chart is pretty simple:

Azato&Itosu - Funakoshi - Nakayama - my sensei - me