Combat Ranges

[ps1]

Very interesting, I don't think that any body that has fought or even sparred has stopped and thought "ok now im in punching range, now i can punch" it sould flow together.

You're absolutely correct that it should flow together. However, I know that every dojo I've stepped into, Karate, Kung fu and TKD all taught about kicking and punching ranges. And it wasn't until I read this book a few years back that I said...that makes alot of sense. Using MMA as a template, you see that they people who consistently get knockouts don't necessarily pay attention to ranges. They throw whatever technique they feel they can connect with in that particular moment. Superman punches, overhand punches, flying knees all tend to defy the "traditional" range system.

[JusticeZero]

I don't recall ever subscribing to the whole 'kicking range, punching range..' idea. One of the things we do to point out range in the classes i've been in is to have people casually shake hands, then demonstrate that that range is more or less the correct range for a variety of attacks. You really shouldn't be obsessing over 'ranges' anyways. You should be looking for holes into which attacks can fit, If the range is wrong, the attack wouldn't fit the hole anyways.

I would, however, advise that when teaching this concept that you also point out that there is another range - that is, the range when you are just a bit outside of range for anything and really can't effectively attack. If you're Out Of Range, you can do all sorts of things with little if any risk, and so can you're opponent - why not make it count for something? Someone charging in to attack is putting themself in a bad, telegraphic position. You have to teach people not to do that, how to recognize if someone will try to do that to them, and how to move to optimize their position in the out of range phase.

[Sokusen]

I think you need to define what the meaning of a range is before you can say they don't really exist. One way to define it is that you are able to hit your opponent without having to close the distance. If that is the definition then there are specific ranges for kicks, punches, knees and grappling. A flying knee starts far away but it doesn’t work unless you close the distance with the flying part. The actual strike is a knee which is very up close. This definition becomes very apparent when someone is horrible at closing the distance quickly. If they can't get in fast then none of the techniques that seem to defy the rule are going to work. Now this person has to methodically find his range where a kick will land, a punch will land, and where he can grapple.

[JusticeZero]

I disagree.

The "range" for all attacks in the group "kicks" and for all attacks in the group "hand attacks" (a superset of "punches") has so much overlap that it is only the outliers on either end that make the comparison appear remotely meaningful.

Furthermore, I am not a believer in "closing the distance", and feel it has little if any role in combat. It should NOT be taught, nor drilled.

If you have to "close the distance" with someone who is not in striking range, they were neither fighting you not a real threat to you to begin with. You are knowingly doing something that puts you at a disadvantage and makes you vulnerable in order to chase them down and initiate combat with them anyways.

Let me repeat that for emphasis. You are drilling techniques to start fights with people who are not attacking or physically threatening you. You are purely the aggressor, and you are not doing anything remotely related to "defending yourself".

If someone is outside of your range in sparring, just drop your guard and wait for them to close. They are not sparring when out of range so much as wasting time posturing and philosophizing. Go ahead and wander to find a better position for when the match starts, but there's no point in trying to attack from out of range.

[Jay]

I do think as well it is very easy to get caught up in the various ranges. I usually see them more as guidelines anyway. The three you specified do tend to make more sense.

The original published concept for the ranges comes from an old book. It may have been in the 60's, I used to know what book it was but I can't remember off the top of my head.

I think as well anyway whatever way you look at it your missing out the overall view, because you will always get times when your transitioning from one area to another.

[Sokusen]

I disagree.

The "range" for all attacks in the group "kicks" and for all attacks in the group "hand attacks" (a superset of "punches") has so much overlap that it is only the outliers on either end that make the comparison appear remotely meaningful.

Furthermore, I am not a believer in "closing the distance", and feel it has little if any role in combat. It should NOT be taught, nor drilled.

If you have to "close the distance" with someone who is not in striking range, they were neither fighting you not a real threat to you to begin with. You are knowingly doing something that puts you at a disadvantage and makes you vulnerable in order to chase them down and initiate combat with them anyways.

Let me repeat that for emphasis. You are drilling techniques to start fights with people who are not attacking or physically threatening you. You are purely the aggressor, and you are not doing anything remotely related to "defending yourself".

I thought we were talking about MMA? Or Sparring? In a Self defense senerio if you can get away, get away.

If someone is outside of your range in sparring, just drop your guard and wait for them to close. They are not sparring when out of range so much as wasting time posturing and philosophizing. Go ahead and wander to find a better position for when the match starts, but there's no point in trying to attack from out of range.

I dissagree. Infact its good way to get knocked out by someone who can close the distance quickly. Especially if they are baiting you to drop your hands so that they can explode in on you when you least expect it.

Now I'm dissagreeing with Gracie, I am saying he may not be taking into account the distance that must be made up before landing the strike.

[JusticeZero]

Sparring is a drill you use to increase your self defense skill. As I have said before, training a skill which is only useful to "win" a training drill is like being on a football team and spending lots of practice time training a tackling technique that only works on a piece of training equipment, not an opposing player. What are you trying to prove with it?

If you have to deal with someone who hangs completely out of range whose game plan is to run up to you and hit you, you should definitely drop your guard, since they're totally predictable anyways and you know exactly what they're going to do. Don't be surprised if you put the other guy in the hospital from his own momentum, though, since they're doing a stupid newbie mistake that only other peoples' mercy is permitting to work.

[honoluludesktop]

Very interesting, I don't think that any body that has fought or even sparred has stopped and thought "ok now im in punching range, now i can punch" it sould flow together.

This is true, It is only after the fact that I came to realize the distances that worked for me. Once aware of them, I drilled by those principles, and practiced my attacks, and defense. Application of distance is by intuition, and must take place at the speed of reflex, there is no time to consciously decide anything.

I have come to believe that everyone approaches realizations in their own way. Because these concepts are uniquely individual, they can rarely be taught.

[bushido_man96]

Lol... here's for the firearms

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9igSoJHEdUo&feature=player_embedded

Better train well!

This is good stuff. What's important to note her is that just having a gun isn't the goal; being versed in deployment is. Just because you can't use the gun right away, doesn't mean it isn't the option you shouldn't train to get to.

Onwards and upwards. Considering the differences we are discussing here between "ranges" and "phases", the use of a "range" requires parameters of distance to be set, thus limiting your thought processes, which wouldn't be good. If you adhere to a "punching range," then when you feel you are in that range, then the punches are your only option until movement to kicking range, or closing to grappling range, or vise versa. However, I notice that most of my low round kicks I can throw from inside my punching range. So a kick lies inside my punching range. I've also seen good kickers be able to throw an inside crescent kick at head level standing within punching "range" or the clinch "range." Seeing things in this manner, I do think the idea of "phases" fits a better model for analyzing what happens when and where in a fight.

[ShoriKid]

Furthermore, I am not a believer in "closing the distance", and feel it has little if any role in combat. It should NOT be taught, nor drilled.

If you have to "close the distance" with someone who is not in striking range, they were neither fighting you not a real threat to you to begin with. You are knowingly doing something that puts you at a disadvantage and makes you vulnerable in order to chase them down and initiate combat with them anyways.

"Closing the distance" means, to me at least, moving into the space where the weapons that fit, or I want to use, work. That may mean moving in from 3 feet out to 12 inches out, or moving to clinch. From "Free movement" to "Standing grappling". That is a distance, a gap, that has to be closed.

Outside of the consideration above, which can become entirely a matter of language, there are cases in self defense where you will have to close distance. The two that most readily come to mind are are third party defense and multiple attackers. If I am forced to defend a third party, which is still legally self defense in a legal sense in many parts of US(Sorry, not at all up on SD laws outside the states), I may have to maneuver to intervene and be required to "close the distance". In the case of multiple attackers not being versed in closing the distance leaves you without the ability to maneuver into a better tactical position, or to go on the offensive once things have been initiated, something I very much believe you need to do if you hope to come out of things in one piece.

Let me repeat that for emphasis. You are drilling techniques to start fights with people who are not attacking or physically threatening you. You are purely the aggressor, and you are not doing anything remotely related to "defending yourself".

Again, I disagree for the above stated reasons, and others. If I have dealt with the initial assault, have a gap, but not enough to ensure a good escape, or they are blocking the path to escape, that aggressive ability to close the distance, inflict harm and get away. You do not have to wait for the other person to attack first for it to be self defense. Being passive in a fight and hoping reaction is faster than action put you a step behind and cut down your odds of successfully defending yourself.

Now, back to ranges vs. phases. I sort of agree and disagree with what was put out by the Gracies. While you don't have to define things as "kicking range" or "punching range" you should be aware of the range your various weapons/techniques reach and can be effectively put to use. And be aware of what sort of things you ca be in danger from. Knowing your 'reach' and being able to judge the reach of an attacker is a very important skill.