Getting off the Line.

[sensei8]

Sounds good. Now in terms of Kata (I will list a few to put my point across to other forms as well)

Geki Sai Ichi and ni (Fukyu gata series)

Taikyokyu (Taihokyu)

Pinan Shodan and Nidan (Heian Shodan and Nidan)

In the beginning of these katas you see a forward step with the right leg, and than a pivot to face to your left. Do you consider this tai sabaki as well as getting off the line. And if you do, is this reasonable evidence that tai sabaki and 'getting off the line' is taught at the earliest age of a martial artist?

I see this question as a Bunkai question, and in that, yes/no because Bunkai isn't an exact science, and there's no right/wrong answer for your question(s).

[ptr]

It's one gripe I often have with classical arts. They actually teach one to ignore the bodies instictual response in favor of an artifical square one. For instance, take a marking knife used in training and slash and an untrained, relitively athletic individuals midsection and you'll likely get some sort of hop back or side stepping motion as the hands come up. Now, put that same individual in a karate class for 6 months to a year and do the same thing. Now, he'll probably respond by taking a rigid stance and attempting to block the incoming weapon with a squared off arm motion of some sort. His non-blocking arm might drop to his waist even. Now we've taken a decent survival response and made it less function thru training. This is problematic.

This is not the case with all karate styles, though. Heck, the words I repeat the most during the classes are "relax" and "move" And I can never emphasize enough that you have to be "with", vs. "against", your opponent.

Back to the original question, I think what matters most is to move out of the "danger zone". And you don't need to move by much ! If your timing and distance are right, a simple shift of weight to the back is enough. Applying the same principles, we also practice moving in, and aside at the last moment - this is irimi, and this is extremely confusing for the attacker since you deliberately give him this target, to better take it away at the very last moment.

Whatever the technique, the key point is to do it timely. Doing it too early is just as bad as not doing anything, because the attacker with follow you. So you have to move out only after he has fully committed his body into the attack.

[Michaell]

I was once at a Ninpo Seminar (aka ninjutsu aka taijutsu aka nintaijutsu by Greg Park). And don't get me wrong, I believe it could be a very very very destructive art, once they lose some of the mysticism.

But...the first thing I 'learned' within this seminar was the 'deadly' art of Kiai Jutsu against a knife wielding opponent, whilst they are charging at you, at full speed. This I had to laugh at, sure Kiai could take someone off guard, but I don't think it would kill or render someone defenseless for a significant amount of time.

Then, this is the part that made me laugh the most, and after this I left, quite dissapointed, I didn't even stay the duration of the seminar, maybe that was rude of me, but I was dissapointed that I paid 150 bucks to go to a "Knife Self Defense" titled seminar...and I was learning junk. Telling me they would next learn to disarm a knife by Atemi waza from the "koga" (they pronounced it Koga...and not koka) Ryu sector of the bujinkan...well when the 'agressor' came barreling at them in the WORST way ever, and they throw up a block and a leg sweep...all the while, getting 'slashed' open by the wooden knife...I don't see how that was a right seminar of knife defense...or atemi waza for that matter...but...I think if they would have 'gotten off the line' they wouldn't have been 'slashed' open by a wooden knife, and a few more people might have respected them a bit more.

Hi, I'm sorry I can't PM you yet. But could you please tell us where and when the seminar was held and who hosted it? Thnx.

[RazeMMA]

I agree with most...get off line with accurate timing. This is one reason why I like Aikido so much, most (if not all) of the techniques go off line while grasping the attacking limb...add a little twist here or a turn there, and the opponent is off balance, ready to hit the floor - especially in combat Aikido.