Getting off the Line.

[JusticeZero]

There is always a line between the two people. 'getting off the line' is just arranging things so that the other guy is not moving and oriented along it.

And sure there's right or wrong on this. If you face off against someone with a knife, and think you are going to stand still and tank like a battleship, you are wrong, and your wrongness will be shown when your body is recovered later.

[bushido_man96]

Sometimes it is also good to put the other guy off his own line.

I think this is where good footwork comes into play, if you can always remain in a position where it is easier to hit the other guy and he can't hit you as easily then your doing okay.

For some people, not necessarily pertaining to me or you, 'line' is simply where a person projects an attack from, or where he is 'squared off to face'. So I think considering, if you make someone get off his or her own line, your making your line change pertaining to where you attack would have to end up, especially if you have to then alter your body to 'face off' again if need me. Maybe not though, I just like to hear other people's thoughts on this. I myself have been in a few fights, mostly in highschool...small minor fights, it was only in college that I had a small knife pulled on me. Nothing really serious then, because I got off the line..and it seems everyone with a knife seems to lunge forward (and not just in movies as it seems, unless this person seen one to many Chuck Norris or Steven Seagal films).

I guess there really isn't any right or wrong to this whole thing, simply it stands with the standards of the 'confrontation' dealing with the aggressor, and 'us'.

But I do agree with you on the body movement (you mentioned foot play) In my school we refer to any movement of the body as tai sabaki, and that can also be similarly thought as moving 'off the line' or onto a new 'line'

The general idea is that if you are getting off the line, you are doing so but still maintaining a good postition to attack from. By jumping to the side and maintaining an athletic position, you can still have a good attack line on the opponent. We train this kind of thing for DT all the time. It can be as simple as taking someone who is facing you and talking, and moving to their 45 degree angle while they talk. It gets you slightly off line, and better prepares you to see them make an overt move.

[Jay]

Sometimes it is also good to put the other guy off his own line.

I think this is where good footwork comes into play, if you can always remain in a position where it is easier to hit the other guy and he can't hit you as easily then your doing okay.

For some people, not necessarily pertaining to me or you, 'line' is simply where a person projects an attack from, or where he is 'squared off to face'. So I think considering, if you make someone get off his or her own line, your making your line change pertaining to where you attack would have to end up, especially if you have to then alter your body to 'face off' again if need me. Maybe not though, I just like to hear other people's thoughts on this. I myself have been in a few fights, mostly in highschool...small minor fights, it was only in college that I had a small knife pulled on me. Nothing really serious then, because I got off the line..and it seems everyone with a knife seems to lunge forward (and not just in movies as it seems, unless this person seen one to many Chuck Norris or Steven Seagal films).

I guess there really isn't any right or wrong to this whole thing, simply it stands with the standards of the 'confrontation' dealing with the aggressor, and 'us'.

But I do agree with you on the body movement (you mentioned foot play) In my school we refer to any movement of the body as tai sabaki, and that can also be similarly thought as moving 'off the line' or onto a new 'line'

The general idea is that if you are getting off the line, you are doing so but still maintaining a good postition to attack from. By jumping to the side and maintaining an athletic position, you can still have a good attack line on the opponent. We train this kind of thing for DT all the time. It can be as simple as taking someone who is facing you and talking, and moving to their 45 degree angle while they talk. It gets you slightly off line, and better prepares you to see them make an overt move.

That sounds like good stuff, I hadn't considered preemptive movement in this situation. I think as well if your not comfortable with someone you tend to remain that bit further away from them its just natural.

[Montana]

What you call "getting off the line", we call change of body, or body shifting. Essentially the same thing. We practice it extensively right from the beginning of training (white belt) and it is a core principle of our art.

When you get really good at it, you end up behind your attacker.

[Fudoshin_Ryu]

Now I would like to ask everyone...what forms of getting off the line do you practice pertaining to your respective style or styles. Like in my school with Uechi Ryu and Goju Ryu we also teach tai sabaki and 'getting off the line' if you prefer whilst practicing on the machiwara. That's one way to train the feet to move in unison with the body so we can perhaps strike and get off the line at the same time.

[tallgeese]

The off line motion can take a lot of forms. Usually, I'll use it as a half step forward and to the outside of an incoming attack. To the jab hand side. Alot of times there's also a bit of turn at the hips with the upper body.

I just depends.

I've also used harder swiveling with the upper body for linear attacks. Knife trusts come to mind.

Additionally, I off line quite a bit with bobbing motions to the outside of more circular attacks. The best method of accomplishing this is usually dictated by the form of attack.

[JusticeZero]

Other than the stuff that we can't not do? As we are forbidden from using a fixed stance?

Usually kickstepping, for me.

The usual drills we use for it involve folding chairs, which we use all the time.

[sensei8]

Right, evading is the first step in a measured defensive pattern. As it so happens, moving off line does this really well. Now, there are better and worse ways to make this happen, but the concept is critical in most things.

Most attacks are more optimally thrown while you're off line of your attacker. Most ground attacks are best thrown while the hips are at an angle to the limb being attacked, hence, another application of off line movement.

From just about anywhere it's a good idea. Now most people will instinctively get this. It's one of the reasons that fights often get that circular pattern going while both combatants are trying to get at one another. Each is instincitively trying to minimize the damage to him and find the opening s on the other guy. Some instincts are better than others, but it's a matter of how we hone them.

It's one gripe I often have with classical arts. They actually teach one to ignore the bodies instictual response in favor of an artifical square one. For instance, take a marking knife used in training and slash and an untrained, relitively athletic individuals midsection and you'll likely get some sort of hop back or side stepping motion as the hands come up. Now, put that same individual in a karate class for 6 months to a year and do the same thing.

Now, he'll probably respond by taking a rigid stance and attempting to block the incoming weapon with a squared off arm motion of some sort. His non-blocking arm might drop to his waist even. Now we've taken a decent survival response and made it less function thru training. This is problematic.

Building off innate responses is often better than trying to re-create thw wheel. An adjustment to foot work, rotating the arms to check the knife swing with the back s of the arms might go further than hours of rigid stance work.

Sometimes we build these deficits in without realizing it for the sake of tradition.

An extremely solid post Alex!!

If someone is going to try to hit me, throw me, and/or unbalance me, I'd want to move in such a way that my opponents original intent isn't even possible.

[Fudoshin_Ryu]

Sounds good. Now in terms of Kata (I will list a few to put my point across to other forms as well)

Geki Sai Ichi and ni (Fukyu gata series)

Taikyokyu (Taihokyu)

Pinan Shodan and Nidan (Heian Shodan and Nidan)

In the beginning of these katas you see a forward step with the right leg, and than a pivot to face to your left. Do you consider this tai sabaki as well as getting off the line. And if you do, is this reasonable evidence that tai sabaki and 'getting off the line' is taught at the earliest age of a martial artist?

[bushido_man96]

Now I would like to ask everyone...what forms of getting off the line do you practice pertaining to your respective style or styles. Like in my school with Uechi Ryu and Goju Ryu we also teach tai sabaki and 'getting off the line' if you prefer whilst practicing on the machiwara. That's one way to train the feet to move in unison with the body so we can perhaps strike and get off the line at the same time.

Many times its a body shift and blocking motion in our one-steps. In sparring, and on bag work, we will do some footwork and kicking, like a 45 degree forward sidestep, followed by a switchfoot round kick to the body, and other things like this.