Getting off the Line.

[Fudoshin_Ryu]

What's everyone's opinion on "getting off the line" of an attack. I for one don't think people think about it, enough. You see all these people teaching self defense orientated martial arts seminars, against all sorts of offensive weapons, (I.E. Knife, Gun, Machete, hachet...etc), but they always face the opposition, head on.

What do you as a person, and as a martial artist think about this?

If you need more information on people I am referring to, youtube is filled with "expert village" personnel who demonstrate this type of 'budo'. I do not wish to talk bad about these people, and I don't necessarily think I am talking bad about them, but I simply don't understand how someone can teach self defense without getting off the line, especially when facing a projectile or bladed weapon (well any weapon for that matter!)

Perhaps it is simply my own ignorance, where I feel that I MUST get off the line in the occurrence of an attack, but this is what I know, if I am wrong, please tell me so, and I will reconsider the whole concept of 'getting off the line'.

[bushido_man96]

Getting off the line is important not only for weapons defense, but also for weaponless defenses. One of the things our one-steps do teach is getting off to an angle for defense. We try to do that in Combat Hapkido as well. I try to do this in sparring as well, since I am a shorter person and I can't win the length battles with taller people if I fight them "straight up."

Part of getting off the line is related to your surroundings, too. Therefore, it is good to be able to defend when you can't get off line, too. But, if you are going straight in, then you have to be moving the attacker's weapons off the line.

[MasterPain]

I always considered getting out of the way to be step 1.

[Fudoshin_Ryu]

I was once at a Ninpo Seminar (aka ninjutsu aka taijutsu aka nintaijutsu by Greg Park). And don't get me wrong, I believe it could be a very very very destructive art, once they lose some of the mysticism.

But...the first thing I 'learned' within this seminar was the 'deadly' art of Kiai Jutsu against a knife wielding opponent, whilst they are charging at you, at full speed. This I had to laugh at, sure Kiai could take someone off guard, but I don't think it would kill or render someone defenseless for a significant amount of time.

Then, this is the part that made me laugh the most, and after this I left, quite dissapointed, I didn't even stay the duration of the seminar, maybe that was rude of me, but I was dissapointed that I paid 150 bucks to go to a "Knife Self Defense" titled seminar...and I was learning junk. Telling me they would next learn to disarm a knife by Atemi waza from the "koga" (they pronounced it Koga...and not koka) Ryu sector of the bujinkan...well when the 'agressor' came barreling at them in the WORST way ever, and they throw up a block and a leg sweep...all the while, getting 'slashed' open by the wooden knife...I don't see how that was a right seminar of knife defense...or atemi waza for that matter...but...I think if they would have 'gotten off the line' they wouldn't have been 'slashed' open by a wooden knife, and a few more people might have respected them a bit more.

[Groinstrike]

Step #1 DON"T GET HIT i.e GET OFF LINE!!!!

[tallgeese]

Right, evading is the first step in a measured defensive pattern. As it so happens, moving off line does this really well. Now, there are better and worse ways to make this happen, but the concept is critical in most things.

Most attacks are more optimally thrown while you're off line of your attacker. Most ground attacks are best thrown while the hips are at an angle to the limb being attacked, hence, another application of off line movement.

From just about anywhere it's a good idea. Now most people will instinctively get this. It's one of the reasons that fights often get that circular pattern going while both combatants are trying to get at one another. Each is instincitively trying to minimize the damage to him and find the opening s on the other guy. Some instincts are better than others, but it's a matter of how we hone them.

It's one gripe I often have with classical arts. They actually teach one to ignore the bodies instictual response in favor of an artifical square one. For instance, take a marking knife used in training and slash and an untrained, relitively athletic individuals midsection and you'll likely get some sort of hop back or side stepping motion as the hands come up. Now, put that same individual in a karate class for 6 months to a year and do the same thing.

Now, he'll probably respond by taking a rigid stance and attempting to block the incoming weapon with a squared off arm motion of some sort. His non-blocking arm might drop to his waist even. Now we've taken a decent survival response and made it less function thru training. This is problematic.

Building off innate responses is often better than trying to re-create thw wheel. An adjustment to foot work, rotating the arms to check the knife swing with the back s of the arms might go further than hours of rigid stance work.

Sometimes we build these deficits in without realizing it for the sake of tradition.

[bushido_man96]

Right, evading is the first step in a measured defensive pattern. As it so happens, moving off line does this really well. Now, there are better and worse ways to make this happen, but the concept is critical in most things.

From just about anywhere it's a good idea. Now most people will instinctively get this. It's one of the reasons that fights often get that circular pattern going while both combatants are trying to get at one another. Each is instincitively trying to minimize the damage to him and find the opening s on the other guy. Some instincts are better than others, but it's a matter of how we hone them.

It's one gripe I often have with classical arts. They actually teach one to ignore the bodies instictual response in favor of an artifical square one. For instance, take a marking knife used in training and slash and an untrained, relitively athletic individuals midsection and you'll likely get some sort of hop back or side stepping motion as the hands come up. Now, put that same individual in a karate class for 6 months to a year and do the same thing.

Now, he'll probably respond by taking a rigid stance and attempting to block the incoming weapon with a squared off arm motion of some sort. His non-blocking arm might drop to his waist even. Now we've taken a decent survival response and made it less function thru training. This is problematic.

Building off innate responses is often better than trying to re-create thw wheel. An adjustment to foot work, rotating the arms to check the knife swing with the back s of the arms might go further than hours of rigid stance work.

Sometimes we build these deficits in without realizing it for the sake of tradition.

I believe Tony Blauer's training systems are based off honing these natural instincts, isn't it? I remember reading a bit about it, and you're right; it just makes sense to work on honing these ideas instead of training them out of us.

[MasterPain]

Instinctive defense? Have you noticed how often great defense is a variation of the fetal position?

[Jay]

Sometimes it is also good to put the other guy off his own line.

I think this is where good footwork comes into play, if you can always remain in a position where it is easier to hit the other guy and he can't hit you as easily then your doing okay.

[Fudoshin_Ryu]

Sometimes it is also good to put the other guy off his own line.

I think this is where good footwork comes into play, if you can always remain in a position where it is easier to hit the other guy and he can't hit you as easily then your doing okay.

For some people, not necessarily pertaining to me or you, 'line' is simply where a person projects an attack from, or where he is 'squared off to face'. So I think considering, if you make someone get off his or her own line, your making your line change pertaining to where you attack would have to end up, especially if you have to then alter your body to 'face off' again if need me. Maybe not though, I just like to hear other people's thoughts on this. I myself have been in a few fights, mostly in highschool...small minor fights, it was only in college that I had a small knife pulled on me. Nothing really serious then, because I got off the line..and it seems everyone with a knife seems to lunge forward (and not just in movies as it seems, unless this person seen one to many Chuck Norris or Steven Seagal films).

I guess there really isn't any right or wrong to this whole thing, simply it stands with the standards of the 'confrontation' dealing with the aggressor, and 'us'.

But I do agree with you on the body movement (you mentioned foot play) In my school we refer to any movement of the body as tai sabaki, and that can also be similarly thought as moving 'off the line' or onto a new 'line'