Which Of The Karate Styles Is The Oldest?

[sensei8]

To answer this question might take a time machine, albeit, it's a difficult question to answer because there is conflicting information out there, no matter where one may look.

So, this poll is for discussion purposes only, for I believe we'll never truly know it's true answer, no matter the source of said information.

[bushido_man96]

Well, I would go with both Naha and Shuri, but are they still styles anymore, as originally taught, or are they the base of the systems we have now?

If someone could set up a timeline so I could visualize when each of the styles came into being, that would be really cool.

[MasterPain]

The question to ask is when did Karate become Karate? Are we talking Chinese hand or Empty Hand? If it's Chinese Hand do we go back to Bodhidharma? If so to we take that lineage back to India? Take it back far enough it was most likely created by Vishnu or Shiva. Much like Pankration(granddaddy of them all) was created by Theseus to defeat the Minotaur.

Empty hand was started by Gichin Funokoshi when he changed the Kanji to mean empty from Chinese. Homophones and such. His school was Shotokan.

So in order to avoid Destroyers of Worlds and Sons of Poseidon, who I will not discredit, I vote Shotokan.

[RJCKarate]

It really depends on your definition of what "karate" is and when it was established. I personally would not include Shuri-te and Naha-te as "Karate" yet, however if we do include those, these two would definitely be the oldest. I would, from my personal research determine that systemised Shuri-te was older, as Sakukawa Kanga (also known as: Tode Sakugawa) and Matsumura Sokon were both practitioners, Matsumura being the first to systemise the fighting arts into what was known as "Shuri-te" (date unknown - but before 1890). It is important to know that these terms are no longer used as a style, and merely to demonstrate what area a style delineated from.

Next, the styles Shorin-Ryu, Goju-Ryu, Uechi-Ryu and Matsubayashi-Ryu are the four considered to be the first "original" karate styles in Okinawa, and were the ones used to form the first group (federation/association).

Shorin-Ryu as a collective name for its styles (which would later be: Matsubayashi, Shobayashi & Kobayashi) stems from Matsumura Sokon, and subsequently Sakukawa Kanga, and was officially formed in 1933 by Chibana Choshin. However, Chibana Choshin wanted to show that he was teaching his teacher's (Itosu Anko) style and named it Shorin-Ryu in 1915. Shorin-Ryu is derived from Shuri-te.

Goju-Ryu stems from Kogusuku Isei and Higaonna Kanryo and was officially formed in 1933 by Miyagi Chojun. Goju-Ryu is derived from Naha-te.

Uechi-Ryu was founded by Uechi Kanbun, after his extensive training in China. In 1907, Uechi opened his first school in China, teaching Pangainoon Kung Fu, in 1925 Uechi moved to mainland Japan and opened a dojo, but still being taught as Pangainoon. This is considered its "birthdate" in Japan. In 1946 Uechi moved back to Okinawa. I am unsure, and have never been able to locate an official date that Uechi-Ryu become Uechi-Ryu, but I believe it is after 1933.

Shotokan was founded by Funakoshi Gichin in 1939 after his extensive study in Shuri-te (Shorin-Ryu).

Another personal fact to note, is on my travels to Okinawa, I have often had this discussion, and many senior karate practitioners generally always agree that "Shorin-Ryu" would be the oldest style of Karate which is still practiced today.

So in summary, a quick timeline would be:

Unknown - Shuri-te (Okinawa)

Unknown - Naha-te (Okinawa)

1915 - Shorin-Ryu, derivative from Itosu (Okinawa)

1925 - Pangainoon Kung Fu (China, first taught in Japan)

1933 - Shorin-Ryu, Kobayashi (Okinawa)

1933 - Goju-Ryu (Okinawa)

Unknown - Uechi-Ryu (Okinawa)

1939 - Shotokan (Japan)

1947 - Matsubayashi-Ryu (Okinawa, Nagamine Shoshin)

I did write this in a fair bit of a rush, I hope I didn't make any significant mistakes!

Edited May 11, 2011 by RJCKarate

[bushido_man96]

Thank you, Sycron!

So now, I shall vote Shuri-te.

[Kruczek]

I would argue that the Americans changed the name of football to soccer - does that mean we were the first to play soccer?

Funakoshi changed it to help promote it among a nation of people who felt they were better than the Chinese (who it was originally named after).

I don't think anyone can be sure which really came first, Shuri-te, Naha-te, or Tomari-te. We do know however that all three were there before anything that we now call "....-Ryu" (in the realm of Karate).

I voted for Shuri-te because there was no way to pick more than one. Just because the name is different, doesn't make the concept different. When Sokon Matsumura introduced Bushido elements in to Okinawan Tode (he would have been in Japan in the 1830s - from memory) he made it what we think of as Karate-Do.

Chibana never called it Koybashi - his students did.

Itosu didn't call it Shorin-ryu, his student did.

Maybe Itosu didn't call it Karate and his student did - but does that mean that Itosu never practiced Karate?

That is my spuratic thoughts on it. If I was confusing I can clarify.

[honoluludesktop]

I would argue that the Americans changed the name of football to soccer - does that mean we were the first to play soccer?

.........

Not sure but didn't soccer already exist when American football was invented?

This poll will result in selection of a ryu that the respondents think is the oldest karate based on a list that doesn't even include the all of major forms of Japanese karate (1 out of 3 if goju is listed as a Okinawan Ryu, if Japanese, then 2 of 3).

If one argues that karate is a Japanese invention based on tote, then Okinawan tote becomes know as karate after the Japanese invention. If however, one argues that root takes precedence, then the list is weighted in favor of Okinawa. But shouldn't root take into account China, and India?

I think its best to think that the definition of karate is a moving target, changing with time, and exposure to different cultures. Say from China to Okinawa, then Japan to the West. But in the process, Okinawan karate died, and was resurrected by Japanese karate. Indeed, western notions of sports affect the practice of Japanese karate. Like ripples in the pond, overlapping, spreading out, rebounding from the pools perimeter.

[sojobo]

I would argue that the Americans changed the name of football to soccer - does that mean we were the first to play soccer?

"Soccer" is abbreviated from "Association Football"

The oldest governing body for soccer in the world is the English FA which stands for "Football Association" and that's where you get the name Association Football which was later abbreviated to "Soccer" in England at the end of the 19th century.

Sojobo

[Soheir]

Naha-te, shuri-te and tomari-te. Whenever I read about early history of karate, those styles come along.

Maybe not actual karate, but the colesest you get might be.

[Montana]

Here's my $.02 worth.

As I understand it, the first organized system of karate that was developed on Okinawa was Okinawan Te, which is still being taught out there, but not to a great extent.

From Okinawan Te, karate started branching out to sub-systems, the first being Okinawan Shorin Ryu Matsumura Seito/Orthodox as taught by Soken Matsumura. This system is still very much alive and being taught.

There are offshoots of this system as well, but many people in the Shorin Ryu Matsumura Seito/Orthodox community are striving to not only preserve the art, but to regress backwards to the old methods of doing the art as opposed to going the way most arts are going, and that is the "new and improved" karate.