What is the breaking point?

[ShoriKid]

Been around here a little while now. Enough to appreciate the experience and advice of many on the boards. So, isolated from several of my old instructors as I am now, I'm turning toward the KF community for a bit of wisdom or guidance.

I've been training for 18 years now primarily in Matsubayashi Ryu, some Shotokan and flashes of American Kenpo. Combine those with a wrestling background, every scrap of judo/BJJ I can get hands on and time with pro kick boxers. I've held a yudansha since late 1996, trained hard and constantly, but haven't pursued rank. There you have who I am martially. Now, I've taught for years, usually with someone else running the school and I'm either supplementing what they do, by invitation, or complimenting it. I was the primary assistant in our school up until about 2-2 1/2 years back. At that point the main instructor had to relocate for school, which I've worked hard to grow with good, solid instruction. I don't do it for money, we look to cover rent, utilities and buy/replace gear as we go. My brother and I have tuned up the curriculum. Codified the kata, basics, self defense and ground techniques that we think best fit our approach to the martial arts and beliefs in what compose an effective core art.

Now that is all written so you will know where I'm at along my martial path. Right now I'm faced with is starting a conversation with a couple of my instructors on what we are teaching. They know the basic contents, but we have made some alterations to what they taught us. Additions to some aspects, reductions in the number of kata, a larger emphasis on ability to apply what you've learned. Going forward I don't look to add tons of kata to what we are doing now, perhaps 11 all told and I have a particular list in mind, just delve deeper into application and refine those basic skills. How do you broach the subject of looking for martial guidance, but say you have an idea of where you're path is leading and that it may not line up completely with where they are going? I have great respect for these martial artists and can definitely still learn from them. Part of me is still hesitant to break away from them, but feel the desire to set my own course and that of the school I'm running.

So, have any of you faced a similar point in your martial path? Or even just considered it? Is it arrogance to think I can do something like this? I'm not claiming to form a new system, I give full credit to the origin of whatever I teach. And I'm fully aware that part of this process is going to isolate myself and my students in the martial world somewhat. Dealing with that would be the next step/problem that I have to deal with. Assuming I find a way forward, anyone have any advice in dealing with that situation?

I blather on, sorry about that folks. Any words appreciated in advance.

[ps1]

You're at the same point I was at a few years back. I had told my instructors what I was doing, what I had changed or modified, and my feelings of why. Initially, I was told it was all great and that my students would still be welcome in the large belt testings, and inner school tournaments that were taking place at the time. My school was to be part of the family.

Then something weird happened. I received a call from the mother of a young student who had taken a liking in me. She was curious why I hadn't come to see her daughter test as I had promised. After apologizing profusely I explained that I hadn't been told any testing was taking place. You see, this student was from the main school and my instructors hadn't bothered to tell me there was going to be a test. A week prior to the test I had called them to ask when it was because I had some students who were ready. They told me they didn't know. They lied to me.

I didn't call them out on it immediately, but as the mother had told me of the upcoming inner school tourney, I called and asked about the event and how to register my students. That's when it happened. The school owner (not my head instructor but still senior to me) said he would rather my students not compete as they learned a different curriculum. I immediately asked what our Sensei thought about that to which the response was, "It's my school, and I don't feel it's right for your students to come to it and compete. Sensei teaches here and will agree with me." I politely said thanks and asked about testing again. "I'll let you know when it's coming up," was all he said. I was being lied to. It bothered me then. Heck...it bothers me now. But I still had loyalty to them and wanted to mend fences.

My opportunity came about 3 months later when job changes forced me to leave my teaching duties. I immediately called the head of the dojo and offered him my school. He was very excited and gladly took the offer. It turns out he wanted to be in that area anyway. I asked him if it was ok for me to come up and train in class that evening and he said yes. Excitedly I packed my gi and belt and headed to class. Upon arriving, I was pulled into the office and told to leave...by the very person who told me it was ok to train. He said he was upset I was training BJJ also and I had to stop training BJJ if I wanted to train there. That wasn't going to happen. So here I am. I now run a BJJ school and have absolutely no ties to my former karate instructors. Sadly, my head instructor died a month later in a parachuting accident. I never got to ask him about the situation.

That's what happened to me. But it was my path...it was the path I needed to follow. It was the path i chose. I would not change it. And I am happy with where it has led.

My advice is to follow what you feel is right for you. If your instructors don't like it, then they don't really care about you, just preserving what is theirs. They should not expect you to carry their burdens.

[honoluludesktop]

After 18 years, you have two kinds of karate. Yours, and that of your root. In the long run, regardless of what you do by yourself, if you teach, IMO you should teach the style of your root. All advanced students modify their art to suite themselves, but the root shouldn't change, especially if you are from a established style. If you succeed in teaching someone for 18 years, you will find that their personal art is different from yours. Don't let your passion for your achievements affect the way you teach basics.

[ps1]

After 18 years, you have two kinds of karate. Yours, and that of your root. In the long run, regardless of what you do by yourself, if you teach, IMO you should teach the style of your root. All advanced students modify their art to suite themselves, but the root shouldn't change, especially if you are from a established style. If you succeed in teaching someone for 18 years, you will find that their personal art is different from yours. Don't let your passion for your achievements affect the way you teach basics.

I agree with this. I should also mention that the changes I had made were to add some things in from BJJ and Aiki Jujitsu. I had set it up so that when a student tested for black belt in Shotokan, they would also be eligible to test for their black belt in Aiki jujitsu and BJJ blue belt as well. I didn't change any of the core arts or call them anything new. It was clear to each student what they were learning. Each individual technique was taught just as it was taught to me.

[ShoriKid]

After 18 years, you have two kinds of karate. Yours, and that of your root. In the long run, regardless of what you do by yourself, if you teach, IMO you should teach the style of your root. All advanced students modify their art to suite themselves, but the root shouldn't change, especially if you are from a established style. If you succeed in teaching someone for 18 years, you will find that their personal art is different from yours. Don't let your passion for your achievements affect the way you teach basics.

I agree with this. I should also mention that the changes I had made were to add some things in from BJJ and Aiki Jujitsu. I had set it up so that when a student tested for black belt in Shotokan, they would also be eligible to test for their black belt in Aiki jujitsu and BJJ blue belt as well. I didn't change any of the core arts or call them anything new. It was clear to each student what they were learning. Each individual technique was taught just as it was taught to me.

The core techniques aren't anything I'm looking to change. Add elements from ground work and pairing down the number of kata is more what I've been involved in. I don't change the way I've been taught to throw a reverse punch, or a front kick. I've not learned a better way to do the basics, never claimed to. I'm more interested in the depth of knowledge, ability to apply what students are learning and rounding out their skill set.

[honoluludesktop]

Don't worry about it. It took you 18 years to get where you are. Let your students build on a solid basic foundation. That by itself may take 5 to 10 years.

[MasterPain]

Been around here a little while now. Enough to appreciate the experience and advice of many on the boards. So, isolated from several of my old instructors as I am now, I'm turning toward the KF community for a bit of wisdom or guidance.

I've been training for 18 years now primarily in Matsubayashi Ryu, some Shotokan and flashes of American Kenpo. Combine those with a wrestling background, every scrap of judo/BJJ I can get hands on and time with pro kick boxers. I've held a yudansha since late 1996, trained hard and constantly, but haven't pursued rank. There you have who I am martially. Now, I've taught for years, usually with someone else running the school and I'm either supplementing what they do, by invitation, or complimenting it. I was the primary assistant in our school up until about 2-2 1/2 years back. At that point the main instructor had to relocate for school, which I've worked hard to grow with good, solid instruction. I don't do it for money, we look to cover rent, utilities and buy/replace gear as we go. My brother and I have tuned up the curriculum. Codified the kata, basics, self defense and ground techniques that we think best fit our approach to the martial arts and beliefs in what compose an effective core art.

Now that is all written so you will know where I'm at along my martial path. Right now I'm faced with is starting a conversation with a couple of my instructors on what we are teaching. They know the basic contents, but we have made some alterations to what they taught us. Additions to some aspects, reductions in the number of kata, a larger emphasis on ability to apply what you've learned. Going forward I don't look to add tons of kata to what we are doing now, perhaps 11 all told and I have a particular list in mind, just delve deeper into application and refine those basic skills. How do you broach the subject of looking for martial guidance, but say you have an idea of where you're path is leading and that it may not line up completely with where they are going? I have great respect for these martial artists and can definitely still learn from them. Part of me is still hesitant to break away from them, but feel the desire to set my own course and that of the school I'm running.

So, have any of you faced a similar point in your martial path? Or even just considered it? Is it arrogance to think I can do something like this? I'm not claiming to form a new system, I give full credit to the origin of whatever I teach. And I'm fully aware that part of this process is going to isolate myself and my students in the martial world somewhat. Dealing with that would be the next step/problem that I have to deal with. Assuming I find a way forward, anyone have any advice in dealing with that situation?

I blather on, sorry about that folks. Any words appreciated in advance.

This is not arrogance. Martial arts for some is a hobby. 18 years in it's more than that or you wouldn't be asking this. My art has a grand total of 10 black belts, all with their own flavor of what that art is. So to me, you described the natural progression of a martial artist. I am a few inches shorter, a lot heavier, stronger and slower than my teacher. If I used his style of fighting, it wouldn't be as effective as mine. He would not do well with my style either. But he taught me to fight like me.

The traditional guys will chew on me for saying this, but martial arts were born with Ug figuring out that hit Oog with rock more effective than hit Oog with fist. Later your teachers taught you Ug's rock technique, and you learned Oog's deflect rock and kote gaeshi followed by Oog's side mount and keylock. Now that you know Ug and Oog's tricks, you are the Alpha Caveman.

You can still teach your base art as it's self and rank student's in it. Anything extra is gravy. I wouldn't give belts in any other system without being ranked in it first. I know a good deal of BJJ, but would never award a belt in it. If what you teach has changed enough that your base system is not really represented, give it a new name.

I hope your teachers will be helpful to you on your ventures. If not, just do what it is that you do. There is nothing wrong with trying to be more complete.

[Liver Punch]

Edit: double post.

Yeah what he said, not the double post, but everything before that. Master pain and I are of the same system. Our instructor's old teachers are a mix of inactive, moved away, old, and crazy. That means that he can't rely or lean on them from an organization standpoint, and even if he could, our lineage certainly isn't as popular, active, accessible, or organized as most systems of Karate or TKD. I, personally see this as an immense benefit because we've formed what amounts to a loose confederation with several other like-minded schools and instructors. If you came to our school to learn martial arts and decided you wanted to focus on being an MMA fighter, a pressure point specialist, a modern combat expert, or anything else: we've got an associate school for that.

So, if it gets to the point where you're on your own, setting up a similar structure might be the way to go. You mentioned the other arts that you'd been a part of and you could go out and find a lone Shotokan, American Kenpo, Judo, and BJJ teacher and build an organization out of it.

Our associate instructors have no say in what the others arts are, but we're all encouraged to cross train at the other schools as much as possible. When test time rolls around, everyone gets together, and not only do you have the ability to test in front of a board of black belts, but you have a few new Uke's to work with, fresh sparring/grappling partners.

Edit:

like-minded

I'd like to add that this phrase is the most important thing in our organization. If we were all of the same style, but were not like-minded, it would be a nightmare. One of the things that make it great are the once a year or so late-night drinking and debating martial arts, philosophy, and the like. We've all got the same goal - to get better, and to produce competent students.

[yamesu]

The traditional guys will chew on me for saying this, but martial arts were born with Ug figuring out that hit Oog with rock more effective than hit Oog with fist. Later your teachers taught you Ug's rock technique, and you learned Oog's deflect rock and kote gaeshi followed by Oog's side mount and keylock. Now that you know Ug and Oog's tricks, you are the Alpha Caveman.

I really like this, not only did it make me giggle, but there is lot of underlying truth to this statement.

Furthermore - as honoluludesktop noted, even where the same basics are taught each individual will make their own use of those skills. The same can be said for any art form, not just Martial Arts. Teach them Ug and Oog's techniques and let them decide how to further themselves individually.

Without using the basics taught to you directly, there is pieces of information that may be "lost in translation"...

One of my favorite memorable quotes is: How do we know where we are going, if we do not remember where we came from?

[yamesu]

The traditional guys will chew on me for saying this, but martial arts were born with Ug figuring out that hit Oog with rock more effective than hit Oog with fist. Later your teachers taught you Ug's rock technique, and you learned Oog's deflect rock and kote gaeshi followed by Oog's side mount and keylock. Now that you know Ug and Oog's tricks, you are the Alpha Caveman.

I really like this, not only did it make me giggle, but there is lot of underlying truth to this statement.

Furthermore - as honoluludesktop noted, even where the same basics are taught each individual will make their own use of those skills. The same can be said for any art form, not just Martial Arts. Teach them Ug and Oog's techniques and let them decide how to further themselves individually.

Without using the basics taught to you directly, there is pieces of information that may be "lost in translation"...

One of my favorite memorable quotes is: How do we know where we are going, if we do not remember where we came from?