Traditional JJJ And MMA

[Davisonsensei]

Ok, lately ive been seeing posts that seem to put bjj on an untouchable plain because of takedowns and ground game that mma and bjj have to offer. Clearly, the majority of bjj focus a lot on the ground aspect of their bjj style, but to say that a traditional jjj stylist couldnt last in a fight aginst a bjj stylist fighting on the ground is simplely not correct. Because with mma, u are bound by rules plain an simple. And because of that, these matches of who will win and who will lose is a crap shoot. Merely a sport with chess like stragety(forgive my spelling). Im not a big fan of mma but i do study traditional jjj and have for over 20 years. In a ring there are factors such as age, phyiscal strengh and conditioning that make up the game. Which I give these competiors total credit for. These people are very dedicated martial artists and deserve what they work hard for. As due all martial artists. I believe that it is the person studying that defines his/her chosen martial art. But to say that I would be taken down by bjj stylist because im a jjj guy is a closed minded comment. Assuming that i let bjj stylist take me down, I have a very good ground game also. The difference is that I train just as hard as mma/bjj person accept i train for life and death situations and not for sport. For 20+yrs i have trained not to b taken down because, lets face it, if you take a street fight to the ground, u have to worrie about being stabbed, shot or being kicked in the face by another. There are plus and neg on both ends of the spectrum. Us traditionalist jjj fight for self preservation and bjj/mma fight to win a match. No matter the style, we all have one thing in common, and that is to win. This is just my opinion and do not intend to disrespect any other martial artist or the system of study.

[MasterPain]

I don't know much about JJJ, so I can't say much about it. But I do feel that a good ground system is indispensable to a complete self defense system. For me it's BJJ, greco-roman, occasionally trained with strikes.

Fights vary by situation, sometimes the ground is the perfect place to be, other times, as you say, it could get you stomped. Some people don't train ground fighting because they don't want to ground fight. Well, I don't want to fight at all, but I train to fight.

My suggestion? Find a high level BJJ guy and crosstrain with him. You could both learn a lot.

[ps1]

I've trained both. I trained Aiki Jujitsu for 6 years and earned the rank of shodan. I have studied BJJ for 7 years and am currently a brown belt. In my opinion, BJJ is superior.

I say this not because the techniques or strategies of JJJ aren't good. Rather because, at least in my experience, most of the time is not spent in randori. We did randori once a week for about 15 minutes. Other time was spent in various kihon (drills) like footwork, disarms, and throws. It felt very stagnant. It was fun, and in the spirit of preserving an art, it was excellent. But it wasn't until I started studying BJJ that I really started learning how to use the things I've learned.

In BJJ, from a very early point, you do free rolling (randori). There are none of the "traditional" elements such as work with swords, spears and other old style weapons. Yet, the disarms the apply to today still exist. Certainly, I benefited from having the knowledge of what various techniques were. But it is the lack of a cohesive system that makes JJJ inferior. I was taught several moves and positions, however, no strategic method of transitioning between them. That's all BJJ is!

Certainly, if you don't want the fight to go to the ground, you can avoid it. But you'll have to do alot of running away. That's not a fight is it? That's just smart self defense, and I don't hear about anyone arguing against it. The point is that a person who actually wants to hurt me is going to get into range to touch me. If they can touch me, I can touch them. From there, I will control and subdue them...on the ground or not is of no consequence.

As far as being stomped, stabbed, shot or any of the other arguments that go with the ground. The same can be done to my opponent as well and that can happen on the ground or on your feet! That's about having good situational awareness. So that argument doesn't really hold water.

I don't know anyone who would set this scenario, "You're surrounded by three attackers. Take each one to the ground and fight them! Go!" That doesn't even make sense! That's when I use a duck under and choke the guy unconscious while using him as a shield. Then, as his friends watch his unconscious body slump to the floor, I stare them in the eye and ask who's next. I make sure my zanshin is strong.

Don't take my word for it though. Go to a local bjj school. Find a brown or black belt and tell them you'd like to try your JJJ against their BJJ. Give them any set of rules or lack there of...I think you'll be far more impressed by the results than you realize.

One last point. I've been to many martial arts schools in my 25 year career. I've met several black belts that can't fight their way out of a paper bag. There are various reasons this happens. We won't get into them here. But, in your time, I'm sure you can say you've seen the same.

However, in just 7 years of BJJ, I've never met ANY brown or Black belt who can't fight. They are always able to put their money where their mouth is. Who knows, as the art gains popularity, that may change. But for now, it's still very true.

[Jay]

BJJ is no magic bullet. You still have to work hard at it like any other art. Its probably not the best measure but I think the average time for a black belt in BJJ is about 10 years. Now against the majority of arts this is a long time. BJJ is all about application of your technique. Something lots of arts don't do enough of. Now for me if you show me a technique once I will usually be able to do it pretty much straight away, my problem however is applying what I know when the other guy isn't just standing there. Which is where the BJJ type training comes in. Application for most will always be alot harder.

Now if you do a lot of randori type training in your JJJ classes then thats fantastic and keep doing it. But if your not up to the standard compared to other guys then BJJ may be the way to go.

The comments you mentioned about JJJ and getting taken down and not having a good ground game. Well these comments are generalisations or sterotypes. Alot of people don't agree but generally sterotypes exist for a reason, its because the large majority are not as good on the ground.

It was a similar situation when the UFC first started. Alot of traditional martial artists couldn't accept that what they had been doing for years and years was not as good as what others were doing.

This is life and you have to accept that. I agree with the practitioner over style argument, but only in a certain condition. This argument will generally hold true against an untrained opponent which for most people is perfectly fine and all they need to be good at. Because again generalizing most people out there won't be trained in anything. When it comes to style vs style it becomes a different argument. A reasonable analogy would be one style is a handgun and another is a rifle. Both are good against someone that is unarmed, but put both in a long distance firing match and the guy with the rifle is likely to come out better. Which is what the UFC did with BJJ.

[MMA_Jim]

Ok, lately ive been seeing posts that seem to put bjj on an untouchable plain because of takedowns and ground game that mma and bjj have to offer. Clearly, the majority of bjj focus a lot on the ground aspect of their bjj style, but to say that a traditional jjj stylist couldnt last in a fight aginst a bjj stylist fighting on the ground is simplely not correct. Because with mma, u are bound by rules plain an simple. And because of that, these matches of who will win and who will lose is a crap shoot. Merely a sport with chess like stragety(forgive my spelling). Im not a big fan of mma but i do study traditional jjj and have for over 20 years. In a ring there are factors such as age, phyiscal strengh and conditioning that make up the game. Which I give these competiors total credit for. These people are very dedicated martial artists and deserve what they work hard for. As due all martial artists. I believe that it is the person studying that defines his/her chosen martial art. But to say that I would be taken down by bjj stylist because im a jjj guy is a closed minded comment. Assuming that i let bjj stylist take me down, I have a very good ground game also. The difference is that I train just as hard as mma/bjj person accept i train for life and death situations and not for sport. For 20+yrs i have trained not to b taken down because, lets face it, if you take a street fight to the ground, u have to worrie about being stabbed, shot or being kicked in the face by another. There are plus and neg on both ends of the spectrum. Us traditionalist jjj fight for self preservation and bjj/mma fight to win a match. No matter the style, we all have one thing in common, and that is to win. This is just my opinion and do not intend to disrespect any other martial artist or the system of study.

Someones been getting a little hot watching the UFC...

Ok well to address some of your issues-ps1 did a good job refuting most of your topics, so I wont rehash too many of them, but I will address a few...

1-That BJJ is merely a sport-

You realize that BJJ was created to be a purely street self defense style, right? BJJ was innovated in the early 1900's- UFC didnt come about until 1993. There were many fights that the Gracies were involved in, and they were all street fights and challenge matches. You hardly get into a fight on the street and stop to say "hey guys, no ball shots, ok?" Get the idea? They fought real actual no holds barred matches. Do you think you're the first person to say "hey, Imma grab your eyes!" I'll tell you what the Gracies said "ok- go ahead and try" and then you end up with a broken arm. In most of their challenge matches, any and all things were allowed and no amount of biting, groin grabbing or eye gouging will help you- that I can promise. I've done challenge matches and have been involved in quite a few fights. Those 3 things are really nothing more than a nuisance at best.

As far as BJJ being utilized in the UFC with all the rules, well you also have to realize that most of the rules in the UFC are against grappling styles like BJJ. Most of the rules are in place to keep fighters on their feet banging it out like the american audience likes to see. With fewer to no rules, you end up with much much more grappling than you see nowadays. Aside from that, its a compliment to BJJ (and a discredit to your JJJ) that it can work within a sportive environment. That shows that BJJ is flexible and able to work under numerous circumstances.

2- Assuming you "let" the BJJ fighter take you down....

We're not asking your permission

You can try a challenge match at any BJJ school. More than just tell you that they're going to take you down, they (at least I) will tell you exactly what else is going to happen. It usually goes like this:

"You can do whatever you want- punch kick, slam etc- the bjj guy is not allowed to strike on the feet- he will take you down, mount you, and slap you around a little bit."

You're not the first person that thought they couldnt be taken down and you wont be the last

3-Fighting witout rules

I will usually give you a little forewarning as well for challenge matches- you CAN bite and eye gouge as much as you like, but there are consequences. After all, this is a "real" fight and Im not going to let you get away with "just tap out and thats that." If you try to gouge my eyes, I WILL break your arm and if you try to bite me, I WILL smash every tooth out of your mouth so think thoroughly before you try to do either of those.

BJJ'er can fight with or without rules- the style wasnt made for fighting within a ruleset, but what it was made for was to be exceptionally flexible. I can use BJJ against an overaggressive drunk uncle at a family BBQ that I dont want to hurt, or I can use it to stop (or even kill) someone attacking me in a life or death situation. Thats the beauty about BJJ- you can go from 0-10 and back in less than a second and decide just how badly you'd like to hurt your opponent (if at all). THAT is what a quality martial art and being a great fighter is all about- if you're ONLY option is life or death, then you're severely limited.

As far as traditional JJJ is concerned, well the average JJJ black belt is equivalent to about a 6 month BJJ white belt on the ground. Thats not so much a slight on JJJ, since that same practitioner could do well in a fight but more of a compliment to the BJJer. This is speaking from numerous experiences, just as others are. Try training in BJJ (or even go and fight one of them if you really want to) and you'll see for yourself. Its no joke

[MasterPain]

1. True, Bjj is the best single groundfighting style there is. To be complete you need some ground and pound, which was really innovated by wrestlers more than anything early on.

A couple things Royce and some of the wrestlers used to do that are useful,but not trained for sport anymore are headbutts from in someone's guard, and those nasty kidney chopping kicks from the bottom of the guard. Just something to do lightly sometimes when training to remember that they are there.

2. I'm reminded of Anthony from that OTHER forum at a challenge match with a kung fu guy. They was kung fu-ed for about a minute before finally getting a takedown and easily tapping the guy. They acted like this meant kung fu was crap. My impression was that he needed some grappling lessons, and Anthony needed to learn how to strike, because for the first minute his BJJ was useless. I always tell pure strikers they need at least basic grappling skill. It goes the other way too. A grappler can be knocked out.

Here it is, I was wrong it ends with knees on the ground.

3. Meeting for a fight with no rules is not a challenge match, it's a "hopefully" non-lethal duel. Everyone involved is guilty of at best a misdemeanor. While you may get by safely with people who do not train in an alive manner, telling any decent high school wrestler they can fight like it's real combat is a good way to end up blind. And for what? So you can show what a MAN you are? Or to say my style is the best?

Sounds like Count Dante returned from the grave and turned grappler. Hmm, good movie idea. I get to play Count Dante.

[bushido_man96]

For 20+yrs i have trained not to b taken down because, lets face it, if you take a street fight to the ground, u have to worrie about being stabbed, shot or being kicked in the face by another.

I agree with ps1. This isn't something that can only happen while on the ground in a fight. It can happen at anytime in a fight. These things aren't good when you are standing up, either. The only advantage that standing really offers you in regards to these additions is to run, and if you are committed to an engagement, then running probably isn't a choice you are making.

Judo made a big impact when it came onto the scene early on in some challenge matches with Traditional JJJ, and the big advantage Judo brought to the table was the extent that randori was trained. BJJ developed in kind of the opposite direction of Judo....to the ground game, as opposed to the throwing game.

[ps1]

2. I'm reminded of Anthony from that OTHER forum at a challenge match with a kung fu guy. They was kung fu-ed for about a minute before finally getting a takedown and easily tapping the guy. They acted like this meant kung fu was crap. My impression was that he needed some grappling lessons, and Anthony needed to learn how to strike, because for the first minute his BJJ was useless. I always tell pure strikers they need at least basic grappling skill. It goes the other way too. A grappler can be knocked out.

Here it is, I was wrong it ends with knees on the ground.

Respectfully, I think this is a horrible video! It looked more like a huge guy just running at a little guy like a bull. That was not BJJ in action. That's the problem I think the OP has though. Guys like "Anthony" going out there running their mouth, when they aren't even that skilled. It gives BJJ the impression of a bad attitude. That's not how all of us think. It's certainly not how I fight.

Let's break down an actual BJJ expert's fighting style:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ho2MUZBtAwM

This is an old video, and admittedly against a body builder...not a martial artists. But the point is how BJJ is designed to be used in combat. Pedro Sauer is now an 8th degree black belt. Notice how he keeps his distance. He uses leg kicks to set up his range. He makes it so the big guy wants to clinch with him. Then he goes where the fight leads.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RawPYGzYOQ&feature=related

You see the same thing here. Rorion simply jams the kick and clinches. But his head is up. He's defending himself. Not just putting his head down and running in like a bull. The guy he was fighting didn't seem like HKD though. Brian can probably shed light on that. I thought HKD was more about joint manipulations than kicking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjK0g-cDJI4&feature=related

This last one is a little brutal. That's Royce's style though.

The point of me showing the last video is, again so you see the way stand up is taught in BJJ. Use the kick to maintain distance and eventually close the gap. However, there is another important thing to see here. Notice that Royce passes on 4 different submissions in favor of striking. Brutal? Certainly...perhaps even uncalled for. But the point is that striking is an important skill. In my opinion, however, BJJ has one of the best delivery methods for striking. Get into a great controlling position first. This way the opponent does not have the opportunity to dance around and hit you back.

For the record...I do wish they'd keep their hands up more! LOL

[Big Daddy]

Wow! You guys dont cut any slack do you? As a bjj student for 15yrs, and a Jjj Insructor and student of 19 yrs I am suprised that everyone took such a defensive stance against Davisonsensei. Cant we agree to disagree? I understand were the bjjers are coming from given that i train bjj but i also have to agree in part to Davisonsensei s post being a jjj guy myself. Bjj came from the japanese arts of jujutsu and later on judo. I compete in mma and have trained quite hard and with a wide varity of people and as a person of both styles, I have to say that if i dont want to go to the ground, then i wont. Because my technique as a jjjer is that good. I think that what hes saying has merit. We all have our opinions and so does he. But if you havnt felt his technique, then how can you say bjj is superior?? Im just a newbie on here and am not looking to create enemies and seeing where the past posts on this subject are coming frrom,... ill base my answers on a curve acording to future posts.

[MMA_Jim]

Wow! You guys dont cut any slack do you? As a bjj student for 15yrs, and a Jjj Insructor and student of 19 yrs I am suprised that everyone took such a defensive stance against Davisonsensei. Cant we agree to disagree? I understand were the bjjers are coming from given that i train bjj but i also have to agree in part to Davisonsensei s post being a jjj guy myself. Bjj came from the japanese arts of jujutsu and later on judo. I compete in mma and have trained quite hard and with a wide varity of people and as a person of both styles, I have to say that if i dont want to go to the ground, then i wont. Because my technique as a jjjer is that good. I think that what hes saying has merit. We all have our opinions and so does he. But if you havnt felt his technique, then how can you say bjj is superior?? Im just a newbie on here and am not looking to create enemies and seeing where the past posts on this subject are coming frrom,... ill base my answers on a curve acording to future posts.

Well, the thing is no one made a post attempting to discredit JJJ in any way. He just decided he wanted to make a post and attempt to flame BJJ. The problem is he doesnt know what hes talking about. I never made a post that say "this style sucks compared to BJJ" but if you want to try to rag on the style then you're just asking to be put in your place.

And seriously, another person who just "doesnt go to the ground." Against a scrub on the street, maybe. But if you really think you cant be taken down, then I seriously doubt your training.

To give you food for though- Josh Koscheck is a 4 time Division 1 All American Wrestler. So was Matt Hughes. Brock Lesner was also a D-1 wrestler. Wrestlers are THE BEST takedown artists in the world- bar none. As such, they're also the best at defending takedowns, given their intimate knowledge of them. These guys still get taken down- do you seriously think your wrestling is better? If so go ahead and compete in the Olympics win a gold medal, and then retire on the money of all the endorsements you'll make as a result.