Advice regarding potentially teaching needed

[Montana]

I'm a thirty four year old brown belt in Shotokan Karate and I've held this rank for more than fifteen years. Since gaining my last formal rank, I've spent most of my training time training privately outside of a formal club setting. During this time my "style" has changed into something that, whilst clearly and unmistakably karate, can no longer be called shotokan Karate

I have no intention or desire to misrepresent myself by claiming official ranks that I don't have. Nor do I wish to proclaim myself a "grandmaster" of my personal style - because that seems rather egotistical, pretentious, and, well, rather silly. I just think that since I know a thing or two, have quite a bit of experience, and since I'm passionate about both Karate and teaching, I would like to share what I know with others.

What I was referring to was that you had earned a brown belt in Shotokan "more than 15 years ago", then what after that? Private training? What's that? Re-runs of the Green Hornet?

Look, the way I see it, you took what...2-3 years of Shotokan some 15+ years ago and have been dinking around with this and that ever since forming "your own system", and now you're asking for our blessing essentially so you can go out and teach others your new and improved special art?

Sorry, but that's exactly how I'd define a McDojo, and I wouldn't encourage, nor endorse it.

[CallMeLuke]

You're a pretty angry, it seems, and determined to get a rise out of me. I'm sorry that you feel this way. Please allow me to address a few of the issues that you raise:

1) Belt rankings: I stepped off the whole "race-to-black" conveyor belt all those years ago because I believed that the practice of Karate was better and more fulfilling without rankings. When you remove artificial ranks, and assessment criteria, the results can be quite rewarding. Does this mean that belts and ranks are useless or that a black belt is worthless? Not at all. Ranks and belts have personal value to many people, and who am I to say that those people are wrong.

2) My "style" of Karate: I never claimed to have invented a new, improved martial art. Over the course of my studies, freed from rigid tradition-bound rules that needed to be followed in order to advance in rank, my "style" evolved to suit my body-type, preferences, and philosophy. This was a natural thing. It occurred slowly. I don't claim that my "style" is better or worse than Shotokan or any other style of Karate. It is merely different, it suits me, and might be of interest to others.

3) My motivation: I don't want to make money off people. I am a teacher by vocation. I think that, as a hobby, it might be personally fulfilling to teach my sort of Karate. If I can make enough money to cover my costs (ie. renting a hall a few times a week) then I'll be happy. If people want grades, I'll grade them for free - but I'll make it clear to them that I don't think that grades are as important as personal fulfilment and a real sense of personal development.

4) My ability: I think that I know enough and have practiced long enough to have gained a fair level of ability. I consider my ability to be equal to many new 1st dan black belts, but really, others should judge this. I don't claim to possess any special skills, abilities or secret knowledge.

5) My integrity: I'm a teacher by vocation. I work in a montessori kindergarden teaching children. I will still work as a teacher once I return to the UK. Do you really think that I would jeopardise my career or good reputation by engaging in shady practices with the intention of fleecing people of their money? Look, as I've already written, I live in China. I could return to the UK, make all sorts of claims about having studies ancient, secret Chinese martial arts, and try to charge a fortune to gullible people to learn my "secrets", but I won't. Think about it, would I even have posted my original question if I was up to no good?

Look, if what I have written enrages you or makes me seem to be a shady scam artist, then perhaps I have failed to express myself clearly and I apologise. Anyway, thanks for the feedback.

[Daisho]

First thing I would like to ask is, would a school of your learned style certify you to instruct others? Like if you contacted Shotokan sensei's would they advance you far enough to instruct? if not, well you have the answer right there. but...

1) Belt rankings: I stepped off the whole "race-to-black" conveyor belt all those years ago because I believed that the practice of Karate was better and more fulfilling without rankings. When you remove artificial ranks, and assessment criteria, the results can be quite rewarding. Does this mean that belts and ranks are useless or that a black belt is worthless? Not at all. Ranks and belts have personal value to many people, and who am I to say that those people are wrong.

This doesn't make any sense to me. You stopped training, prior to completion, because you felt you weren't being fulfilled by gaining rank?

Then you go on to say that the ranks are artificial, and that the only value is personal. That kind of scares me as to your own MA experiences. In my home dojo, no rank is given out without a major increase in applied techniques, understanding of techniques, and the ability to join on the mat and prove it. You don't take a look at a single student and say that rank around their waist is artificial, because he'll pull most students below him to pieces. Not only are our ranks respected in dojo, but we had gotten compliments from all the local schools about our guys in competition and cross-training.

That's not "personal value", that's a flag on their uniform telling you exactly how proficient they are in a very well respected MA.

2) My "style" of Karate: I never claimed to have invented a new, improved martial art. Over the course of my studies, freed from rigid tradition-bound rules that needed to be followed in order to advance in rank, my "style" evolved to suit my body-type, preferences, and philosophy. This was a natural thing. It occurred slowly. I don't claim that my "style" is better or worse than Shotokan or any other style of Karate. It is merely different, it suits me, and might be of interest to others.

Here I am going to agree with the above poster. This sounds exactly like the typical entry info of a Mcdojo. Trust me, I spent three years in an Isshin-ryu class that gave out BB's like candy, like 18 years back. You may in fact have something to offer others in the way of training but "free'd from rigid tradition-bound rules" etc is probably going to be a turnoff to many students. People interested in karate generally welcome the institution and all it's regulations that comes along with it. Otherwise they'd be taking kick-boxing, Muay Thai, etc. It seems like every sensei that opens a dojo without the blessing of their traditional school has all these issues with "tradition" and "rules" but then their dojo's are founded and BAM there's a rule set, and if there's any success at all BAM, there's tradition forming. The case always seems to be people don't like the traditions and rules that limit them from doing what they want to do exactly whent hey want to do it.

You never see people complain about the traditions or the rules of a boxing gym, wrestling program etc. Maybe a specific coach, but most serious practitioners understand that a major investment is required to get what they want.

3) My motivation: I don't want to make money off people. I am a teacher by vocation. I think that, as a hobby, it might be personally fulfilling to teach my sort of Karate. If I can make enough money to cover my costs (ie. renting a hall a few times a week) then I'll be happy. If people want grades, I'll grade them for free - but I'll make it clear to them that I don't think that grades are as important as personal fulfilment and a real sense of personal development.

As a teacher don't you think it's important for an instructor to have an indepth and applied knowledge of what is being taught? I mean I have no idea how your lineage school was run, but our shodans have to put in competition time on top of supervised class leading time in order for them to even begin the teaching process. Do you come from a school that one day says, ok… no need to demonstrate your ability in competition, or learn to teach at the hands of an experienced instructor, just go ahead and run a class????? Do you think that stuff is unimportant? Do you think it's unimportant that you will be the only person that will be able to grade the proficiencies of your students? That your "style" won't be welcome at most competitions, and your students will never have a chance to apply any of what you've taught them? That no students can come in from other brother/sister schools and cross-train/cross instruct and maybe help you patch holes in your own teaching?

4) My ability: I think that I know enough and have practiced long enough to have gained a fair level of ability. I consider my ability to be equal to many new 1st dan black belts, but really, others should judge this. I don't claim to possess any special skills, abilities or secret knowledge.

you "think" you know enough and practiced long enough to have gained "a fair level of ability"?? dude, you should not be opening your own school. you have every reason to be unsure of yourself, as no school would certify you proficient enough to teach. and even if your proficiency was there, learning how to instruct a class is an entirely different level of understanding.

In my school you don't instruct anything at all as a shodan. You just up your training game and begin to compete. For people only interested in competing to master M-R, they compete within the style's events, or invitational events for traditional arts, or Judo competitions. Some choose to begin competing for MMA etc around blue/brown belt. At Nidan you can start class room training on top of your competitions. Class room being leading a class in warm-ups, working with mid ranked students on their throws etc. A nidan without sufficient instructor training isn't getting anywhere near the low levels, he's only teaching those that have enough knowledge to know if he's teaching something incorrectly and can call him out on it.

which leads me to…

5) My integrity: I'm a teacher by vocation. I work in a montessori kindergarden teaching children. I will still work as a teacher once I return to the UK. Do you really think that I would jeopardise my career or good reputation by engaging in shady practices with the intention of fleecing people of their money? Look, as I've already written, I live in China. I could return to the UK, make all sorts of claims about having studies ancient, secret Chinese martial arts, and try to charge a fortune to gullible people to learn my "secrets", but I won't. Think about it, would I even have posted my original question if I was up to no good?

My gf's sister teaches art in a montessori school. I don't think that has any bearing on her level of integrity. You can't fleece local students damn near anywhere, because it doesn't take much time at all for other local dojos/schools to come around snooping, and to be checking up on your credentials. That's just the way things are. That's also the reason you brought this up here. You KNOW you have no business opening up a school of MA instruction, and you're testing out the idea on the MA community. But you'll find the MA community has been plagued by hundreds of schools with uncertified teachers for decades. No one is going to tell you to go for it. And you better believe other sensei's in your locale are going to aggressively check you out.

I guess you could bill yourself as RBSD, but when students are interested in that they usually look for Krav Maga/Systema etc. Not some guy that is a brown belt in traditional karate that doesn't have any quals what-so-ever.

If it seems like I'm picking on you, I'm not. I'm just trying to express as thoroughly as possible that what you're doing is probably ego driven, and a BAD IDEA. If you want to return to MA and don't like SHotokan's trad rules, join up something different. You aren't a fan of rankings, so it's doubtful you'll mind starting at white again.

[CallMeLuke]

Thanks for the reply, Daisho. As always I welcome any and all opinions.

A few comments based on a few of your points and the points of others:

I would never fleece anyone out of money. No dodgy contracts, no money making scams. Just me sharing what I do with anyone who might be interested.

I've never seen a "McDojo" (as they're commonly defined online) in the UK. Maybe they're more prevalent elsewhere? The whole idea of a full-time school with its own premises, with full-time instructors, run as a money-making business, doesn't fit with any karate school I've ever visited or seen in England. It certainly doesn't fit in with what I want to do - which is teach what I do as a hobby.

I understand that you place much personal value in rank. From what you've written, it seems that you and your fellow club members should be rightly proud of your achievements. The thing about rank is, there is no set criteria that can be applied evenly across clubs/schools or MA styles. What is a black belt? Is a black belt in BJJ the same as one in Taekwondo? Does it represent the same proficiencies, knowledge, or practical abilities? How about, looking at a single MA, across different clubs that perhaps have different training methods and place emphasis on different areas of their art? Is a black belt in a style that focus more on the "way of life" aspect of traditional martial arts equivalent to a black belt in a style that focusses more on "artistic expression"? Or to a black belt in a style that focusses on practical self-defence? Or to a black belt in a style focussed on competitive sports combat? And you can replace the term "black belt" with any definition of rank and ask the same questions.

No, a rank only has currency in the club that awarded it, or in any organisations to which the club might belong. Outside of these groups, the rank is meaningless to others. But please read carefully what I write: the personal value of rank can be important, because, for some, it represents a degree of personal development.

I agree with you that a teacher should have an in-depth knowledge of what is being taught, and for this reason I would never dream of trying to teach Shotokan. I have more than a brown belt level knowledge of Shotokan but I only graded up to brown belt. Anyone interested in traditional Shotokan should look for a teacher who has achieved a senior dan ranking in the art.

What I do have an in-depth knowledge of is what I do, which no longer resembles Shotokan very much at all, but which would clearly be seen to be heavily influenced by Karate by anyone who observed it.

What I do places a lot of emphasis on practical self-defence and personal and artistic self-development. It includes punches, kicks, blocks, parries, throws, and locks, and enough basic grappling defence work to defend against amateur takedown attempts and to enable a person to protect himself long enough to regain his feet in the case of being taken to the ground. It also includes unique kata that record practical self-defence techniques in an unambiguous way whilst retaining the artistry of traditional Shotokan kata.

It would be far from the best choice for competitive sports fighting or MMA competition, and the same goes for most traditional styles of MA and or styles based on traditional MAs, and I would honestly suggest to a potential student who is interested in training for MMA to cross train in a focussed competitive grappling art and a focussed competitive striking art rather than to join my classes.

It seems to me that personal dishonesty and false claims about the effectiveness of the taught style are two core features of "McDojo" schools, and I hope that I have managed to convey my desire to avoid both these things.

Regarding your point about clubs forming their own structures and traditions once they are established - thats a very good point. It gives me something to think about. I don't mind ranking systems as long as a student can opt out of them and still progress in his or her training without punishment or pressure of any kind, but that's probably easier said than done. Hmm.

[Liver Punch]

I would never fleece anyone out of money. No dodgy contracts, no money making scams. Just me sharing what I do with anyone who might be interested.

I've never seen a "McDojo" (as they're commonly defined online) in the UK. Maybe they're more prevalent elsewhere? The whole idea of a full-time school with its own premises, with full-time instructors, run as a money-making business, doesn't fit with any karate school I've ever visited or seen in England. It certainly doesn't fit in with what I want to do - which is teach what I do as a hobby.

Everyone's definition of McDojo is different, but as long as you aren't outright screwing people out of money or ranking people to black belt as rapidly as possible, I think you're free from falling into that category. With all due respect to the other members of this forum, I think that there's a lot of black belts out there who are a joke, plain and simple. When I was a brown belt, I would have put myself against any black belt from an entire list of systems in actual combat. So, as far as rank is concerned, I could care less what someone holds. That's a good thing if you're a highly-capable brown belt, but if you're an incapable brown belt, then yeah, stay away from teaching until you get better.

But regardless of skill, if you're charging just enough money to pay for the necessities of training and don't pass yourself off as being something you're not, then you aren't running a McDojo.

I agree with you that a teacher should have an in-depth knowledge of what is being taught, and for this reason I would never dream of trying to teach Shotokan. I have more than a brown belt level knowledge of Shotokan but I only graded up to brown belt. Anyone interested in traditional Shotokan should look for a teacher who has achieved a senior dan ranking in the art.

What I do have an in-depth knowledge of is what I do, which no longer resembles Shotokan very much at all, but which would clearly be seen to be heavily influenced by Karate by anyone who observed it.

What I do places a lot of emphasis on practical self-defense and personal and artistic self-development. It includes punches, kicks, blocks, parries, throws, and locks, and enough basic grappling defense work to defend against amateur take down attempts and to enable a person to protect himself long enough to regain his feet in the case of being taken to the ground.

You're a Shotokan brown belt and therefore not looking to teach Shotokan as a black belt. That seems reasonable. And, you felt that Shotokan could be improved upon, so you added in modern self-defense, and the techniques of other martial arts. That's also reasonable. The important part comes as to where these other techniques were learned. If you watched some television, read some magazines, and bought an instructional book...that's no good, and you should avoid teaching. But if in your time off from Shotokan you have been training wrestling, Jiu Jitsu, and self-defense, and are now looking to mesh your skills into one art...that's a good thing.

I don't know all the details in this, and I don't think anyone else here does either. If anyone here thinks mixing and matching martial arts to create a better art and free yourself from the traditions and structure of those traditional arts is the definition of a McDojo, I think they should take a few field trips and see how well the ability to count to ten in Japanese helps you in a combative situation.

I understand that you place much personal value in rank. From what you've written, it seems that you and your fellow club members should be rightly proud of your achievements. The thing about rank is, there is no set criteria that can be applied evenly across clubs/schools or MA styles. What is a black belt? Is a black belt in BJJ the same as one in Taekwondo? Does it represent the same proficiencies, knowledge, or practical abilities? How about, looking at a single MA, across different clubs that perhaps have different training methods and place emphasis on different areas of their art? Is a black belt in a style that focus more on the "way of life" aspect of traditional martial arts equivalent to a black belt in a style that focuses more on "artistic expression"? Or to a black belt in a style that focuses on practical self-defense? Or to a black belt in a style focused on competitive sports combat? And you can replace the term "black belt" with any definition of rank and ask the same questions.

No, a rank only has currency in the club that awarded it, or in any organizations to which the club might belong. Outside of these groups, the rank is meaningless to others. But please read carefully what I write: the personal value of rank can be important, because, for some, it represents a degree of personal development.

While rank does only have a particular amount of currency in the art it comes from, brown and black belts are pretty much universally recognized as pretty good, and really good, respectively. As aforementioned, I think there's a lot of black belts in a lot of arts that would be sitting ducks in a fight. However, even those guys have some ability and knowledge that everyone can learn from. They've done their time, they've mastered a lot of technique, and shown a lot of discipline. Those are three values that are universally useful, and in and of themselves deserve some respect.

You're not in love with the idea of rank for yourself and your art, and that's fine. There are plenty of combative groups who's members don't wear rank belts (boxing, wrestling, combative shooting groups, muay thai, Blanka from Street Fighter) and they all seem to do just fine. If you're going to call your system a martial art, I think rank is very important. While Boxing, Wrestling, etc. don't have ranks, they compete, and students earn a record to show their ability. People like to have a measure of their ability...it gives them street cred.

If rank belts aren't a necessity in your new art, I assume that you won't be wearing a traditional uniform. I would suggest something like Neil Melanson uses in his submission grappling classes. He ranks people with stripes that can be sewn on their shorts. http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://xtremecouture.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/beltrank_photo_grad.jpg&imgrefurl=http://xtremecouture.wordpress.com/2010/04/22/xtreme-couture-announces-grappling-stripe-rank-system/&usg=__xRwfnLWnGFPjijeuac6rNIuq7xw=&h=919&w=1171&sz=540&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=UwSJZGXC_FpC-M:&tbnh=136&tbnw=173&ei=GCXATY2_LYiU0QHQxLn2BA&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dxtreme%2Bcouture%2Bgrappling%2Brank%2Bpatch%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26biw%3D1024%26bih%3D632%26tbm%3Disch&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=128&vpy=139&dur=991&hovh=199&hovw=253&tx=148&ty=118&page=1&ndsp=15&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0

In closing, you probably know whether or not you are a fraud. You probably know whether or not you have to teach people to defend themselves. If you plan on being active in the martial arts community or having a large school, you'll probably want a black belt eventually. Putting one on yourself is a bit tasteless, and I don't think you want to get your BB that way anyhow. I think you should continue your training regardless of whether or not you're going to teach. If you are going to teach, it will benefit both you and your students. It also gives you an avenue to earn a blackbelt outright, and keep your skills sharp against people that are experienced martial artists, and not beginners.

[MasterPain]

Yeah, what he said. I definitely would want a black belt from somewhere if I was going to rank students, other than that, teach what you know. A person's knowledge speaks for it's self, and it won't take long for you to gain a reputation for better or worse.

I've learned useful stuff from people who hold no rank. And I've seen black belts that one of our better white belt students could walk all over.

[Daisho]

If there was an implication in what I posted that I thought you weren't skilled enough to teach, that wasn't my intention.

The points I really wanted to stress were the positives of being a member of an organization or association. In your school you'll be the only person capable of teaching your style, considering the modifications you've made. That will lead to a very narrow point of view. Also you'll be the only person that can rank and grade your students, and i'm a firm believer that an outside source for grading is of huge importance.

If anyone here thinks mixing and matching martial arts to create a better art and free yourself from the traditions and structure of those traditional arts is the definition of a McDojo, I think they should take a few field trips and see how well the ability to count to ten in Japanese helps you in a combative situation.

I haven't seen anyone make this argument, so i have no idea who is being addressed by the comment. I can count to 10 in Japanese, have studied in a dojo that is very traditional, and at the same time has done EXTREMELY well in Judo competition.

Outside of Judo competitions members from my dojo have competed in "Throwdowns" hosted by a different and well known martial arts website. My ability to count to 10 didn't hamper me from winning against a kyokushin/BJJ practitioner in my first Throwdown experience back in '08, nor did it hamper me from giving a MT fighter that had competed collegiantly in wrestling, a serious run for his money either. In a separate event hosted by The Universal Warrior Arts program I was able to take down and submit a taijitsu practitioner by rear naked choke in under 30 seconds.

But then again, i love taking field trips.

Also my post wasn't meant to say that only black belts have an understanding of their art, but I do come from a dojo where you don't make it to shodan without putting in some serious work, competiting successfully, and staying in top physical shape. It's disheartening to hear how many dojo's out there have belt systems that might be so useless as to be considered an afterthought.

It sucks that people would have an experience like that. We've always had a lot of guys from law enforcement and the HArvey Boxing Studio that have come in to train, so the signal to noise ratio of nonsense martial arts has always been kept to a minimum.

You're obviously going to do what you want to, but keep in mind at even the moderately expensive school, training is pretty cheap for the amount that you gain from it. Sure you're not looking to charge a fortune and fleece people, but could they spend a similar amount of cash and benefit more from a school with multiple instructors, that engages in competitions, and has a rotation of instructors that can visit and help bring fresh perspectives?

Only you can answer exactly what you think you can bring to the field.

Either way I think you'll save yourself a ton of second guessing if you just find a shotokan schoolt hat you can meet with the sensei and se eif you can qualify as a instructor level practitioner. The local schools might not want the competition, but a little trip to a further one might provide you with some insight.

just my .02

[Liver Punch]

I haven't seen anyone make this argument, so i have no idea who is being addressed by the comment.

If you're not sure who this was adressed to, I'm not sure why you felt the need to address it with a a description of why it doesn't apply to you. Unless of course, you thought that it was directed toward you and didn't say so, in which case you might be right. That argument was something along the lines that you appeared to be making.

In saying that his style wasn't anything new, but was free of rigid tradition-bound rules that needed to be followed in order to gain rank, and were furthermore adapted to suit his body style and that it was no better or worse than anything else, you called it McDojo like.

I train at what amounts to three different schools in three different cities, and none of them are deep-rooted in what I could call "the traditions of their art." They've all been adapted, modified, and offered "as-is". It just appeared to me that a bunch of people jumped all over someone and told him he didn't have what it took to teach and if he tried to do so, he'd be running a McDojo. I found that to be incredibly pretentious, and more importantly, nonconstructive.

I think being on this forum constitutes an active effort to be part of the Martial Arts community, and inherent in such effort should be the desire to be as productive as possible. I'd very much like to be as constructive as possible in both the sharing of information and the exchange of advice and would certainly hope that it's something everyone else strives toward.

Your most recent post clarifies your position on this issue, and I think we're in agreement on the subject as a whole. You should understand that you do not represent the majority of martial artists or their respective dojo. The majority of them do not require someone to be developed physically and mentally, nor do they require what I would classify as "overly-adequate" amounts of time to make it to black belt. I get the vibe that this guy has desire to establish a school that produces something closer to what you are as a martial artist than to become a 7-year old blackbelt factory.

Ultimately, I felt that anyone taking the position of calling a potential school a McDojo before its doors open is one of the most counter-productive measures that can be taken on these forums. If this individual is to open a school, I would much rather he have a forum of martial artists worldwide that can give him positive input and support than have a group of people ostracizing his school before its doors even open. He will almost certainly listen to a group of supportive allies with useful advice and constructive criticism in an effort to improve both himself as a martial artist and his school as a whole.

To put it plainly: even if this guy sucks and what he does sucks, he's going to start teaching. I'd rather it be with a a variety of martial artists attempting to guide him in the right direction, than doing whatever he wants, because let's face it...that's what all of the crappy instructors, schools, and organizations do right now. I mean, come on - imagine if we could convince the Tai Chi guys to do a form with a shotgun...

Also: Field trips do, indeed rule.

[Daisho]

I hear exactly what you're saying, and I don't think we're really in disagreement at all.

My Mcdojo comment wasn't directed at his potential school, but at the similarities it might have to the practices I remember in the late 80's early 90's. I've stated before that during that time, when I was 9 or so I joined an Isshin-ryu school. By 13 I had my first blackbelt, and in the 18 years since then I can't think of a single time I employed anything at all that I'd learned in that program. It gave me a terrible view of Isshin-ryu, that stuck with me until 5 years or so ago when I met an Isshin-ryu practitioner in a BJJ class that was more than just competent in fighting.

The reason I bring that up is because when I realized I wanted to resume MA training, and went to the school over issues with other Isshin-ryu programs saying I wasn't certified, I was given the explanation that the sensei had broken away from Isshin-ryu 10 years before I'd even begun training, because he had issues with the association he was training in. Apparently he also had issues with the traditions of Isshin-ryu. In that dojo we wore gi's with belt rankings, and generally carried on in what you'd consider a very traditional way. So it seemed his only problem with tradition was the fact that he didn't want to bother continue training, and wanted to play karate master instead.

As much as I agree with a lot of what you're saying, I also still disagree with some. He isn't fully trained in his style, and I'll use the same example you did of a boxing school/wrestling program. Could you imagine what a collegiate wrestling coach would say if you told him you were going to do all your pre-college wrestling in a school that had no affiliations, didn't compete, and had a wrestling instructor who was never a qualified practitioner?

A boxing program would be even more so. I can't imagine walking into Harvey's and telling them that my choices to train seriously were between me learning there…. or me learning from my uncle John who did a few years of boxing in the Navy. Sure I might get some real practical training by either my uncle john, or some semi-qualified former wrestler, but that coach, or the head trainer from the boxing gym would think I was nuts. Maybe that sounds pretentious, but I can't imagine ever training in a place again where actual fighting skill and constant competition wasn't the measure in which people judged their self-defense abilities. I know in Judo, a lot of the best competitions are invitational and they invite according to the prestige of your program. Where would the people taking his class compete? Internet MMA events? I'd been a very serious student for 6 years by the time i went to my first mma throwdown, and my ability was strained. My sensei's had helped me with both my on the mat and off the mat regime, reworked my weightlifting and cardio programs, and other students who had experience competeting in MMA styled get-togethers took on the role of personal trainers in the gym to maximize my preparedness. Could you imagine someone walking in from a program that doesn't have inter-art competitions for them to hone their abilities, nor a sensei with any competition background?

If you think I don't know how high the signal to noise ratio is in modern martial arts I'd like to direct you to my other thread: http://www.karateforums.com/trial-class-nightmare-vt40859.html . I live 2 blocks from a krav maga program that seems like it'd be better suited to have the people dress as wizards and monsters and battle it out with fake swords in the park. I just don't think having another school open up with an unqualified instructor is the answer to the problem.

You travel to three separate cities to train in 3 different styles that you feel all lock in together to round out your ability. I've got nothing but respect for that, and am sure we could probably get together and talk for hours straight about martial arts and have a blast. But think back to being a newbie, and finding a local karate program that you think is going to have you ready to rumble; not judging the actual fighting skill of CallMeLuke, but do you think this kind of program would maximize whatever money/time you'd be spending?

[MasterPain]

If you think I don't know how high the signal to noise ratio is in modern martial arts I'd like to direct you to my other thread: http://www.karateforums.com/trial-class-nightmare-vt40859.html . I live 2 blocks from a krav maga program that seems like it'd be better suited to have the people dress as wizards and monsters and battle it out with fake swords in the park.

not judging the actual fighting skill of CallMeLuke,

If you want to have a fun time, train FMA for a while then go to the park dressed as a wizard and pwn them all like noobs. You may even find someone else of a like mentality. Then you can show everyone how real orcs fight.

But here lies the problem. you are making assumptions of CallMeLuke's ability. We should give him either benefit of the doubt, or ask specifically what his training has consisted of since quitting Shotokan. For all we know, he's had a great wrestling and kickboxing coach, and is basically a mixed martial artist that kept the karate flavor.