Not sure what my GM did...

[bushido_man96]

I have a set of General Choi's encyclopedia, since the style of TKD I practice uses that form set. However, the forms have been altered some, and the requirements for the black belt ranks are different.

It appears that the first degree forms, according to Choi, are:

Kwang Gae

Po Eun

Ge Baek

As a first degree in my organization, we do only Kwang Gae. For the rank before, which is a first degree "recommended" rank, we do Choong Moo, which is done as rec and as high brown.

Choi's second degree forms are:

Eui Am

Choong Jang

Juche

I know none of these forms yet, as a 3rd degree. As a second degree in my organization, we are required to test on:

Po Eun (second recommended)

Ge Baek (decided)

Choi's third degree forms:

Sam Il

Yoo Sin

Choi Yong

The forms I do as a 3rd degree are:

Se Jong (recommended)

Yoo Sin (decided)

We do Choong Jang at 4th degree, Choi Young at 5th degree, and Tong Il at 6th degree.

So, there are quite a few discrepancies in our forms requirements, and those of the standard ITF schools, if they still follow with Choi's original requirements here.

Now why my GM did this, I'm not for certain. From what I can gather, I think he started out as a WTF member in South Korea. Something happened, and when he came to America, he chose to switch to the ITF forms, but not all of them. He also made some changes to some of the forms, some of which are quite different. In Se Jong, there is one technique that goes a totally different direction, but the form still seems to end correctly. In Yoo Sin, he added two low side kicks (knee level) after each of the U shaped punches.

Kind of crazy. I thought it would be interesting to hear what others that do ITF had to say in comparison here.

[hammer]

Our ordering is all different as well...many websites I see have Se Jong as one of the last forms but we learn it as 2nd degree BBs.

I've now been exposed to all of the forms (we do 25) but after learning the first 18 or so it's really starting to get challenging to keep track of them all.

[DWx]

The ITF does it exactly that way still. I have to say I like the order we do them as each pattern teaches new concepts and techniques that follow on well from the previous patterns; e.g. Kwang-Gae is the first time you learn to do a consecutive kick, two side kicks where your body and hips face the same way, then in Juche at the next belt you do a hooking kick-side kick consecutively which now requires you to go from forward to side facing which is slightly more difficult, then in Choi-Yong you've got to do a reverse hooking kick-side kick which is even harder still because your hips do 180° first and you have to control your balance to get the side kick out.

I think its also nice to have 3 per belt level as you're spending years between gradings now and its just nice to have a lot of new stuff to work with over that time so you don't bored. The groups of 3 also usually contain 3 very different forms which means there's something for each body type. Like at 2nd dan you see the heavy powerful people choosing Choong-Jang as their competition form (we have to do one of the ones from our current grade) and the leggy lighter people tend to pick Juche.

Brian, its interesting that your GM added in moves and changed them. How does it affect the diagrams (shape the pattern makes on the floor) as some of them create shapes and symbols that reflect who or what they were named after. The patterns were also constructed so that you can start with your foot on a mark on the floor and then finish exactly on that spot if you've done your stances and stepping right. Its one of the things examiners/umpires look for for technically accuracy. Adding moves in would also change the number of moves which also have significance behind them. Yoo-Sin has 68 because the three kingdoms were united in 668 AD. Do you have to learn the meanings behind the patterns? Because I'd imagine it might be confusing if the meanings didn't match what you were actually doing.

Do you guys still do the same colour belt forms?

[bushido_man96]

The ITF does it exactly that way still. I have to say I like the order we do them as each pattern teaches new concepts and techniques that follow on well from the previous patterns; e.g. Kwang-Gae is the first time you learn to do a consecutive kick, two side kicks where your body and hips face the same way, then in Juche at the next belt you do a hooking kick-side kick consecutively which now requires you to go from forward to side facing which is slightly more difficult, then in Choi-Yong you've got to do a reverse hooking kick-side kick which is even harder still because your hips do 180° first and you have to control your balance to get the side kick out.

Whether it is right or not, I've considered spending some time to learn some of these forms that I will not get a chance to learn. I'd be teaching myself in essence, but with the knowledge I have on how to do the techniques and move, I don't think I would have too much trouble with it. I'd just apply the techniques as I know them from my training. Who knows, I might learn something new.

I think its also nice to have 3 per belt level as you're spending years between gradings now and its just nice to have a lot of new stuff to work with over that time so you don't bored. The groups of 3 also usually contain 3 very different forms which means there's something for each body type. Like at 2nd dan you see the heavy powerful people choosing Choong-Jang as their competition form (we have to do one of the ones from our current grade) and the leggy lighter people tend to pick Juche

I kind of noticed that. I like Kwang Gae ok, and I felt I did it pretty well. I did take first at a tourney with that one. But I loved doing Gae Baek. It just felt like I was built for it. Lots of shorter, compact moves and combinations, and lots of power. However, we do a hopping side kick in place of where the jump side kick is in that form; another change the GM made.

Brian, its interesting that your GM added in moves and changed them. How does it affect the diagrams (shape the pattern makes on the floor) as some of them create shapes and symbols that reflect who or what they were named after. The patterns were also constructed so that you can start with your foot on a mark on the floor and then finish exactly on that spot if you've done your stances and stepping right. Its one of the things examiners/umpires look for for technically accuracy. Adding moves in would also change the number of moves which also have significance behind them. Yoo-Sin has 68 because the three kingdoms were united in 668 AD. Do you have to learn the meanings behind the patterns? Because I'd imagine it might be confusing if the meanings didn't match what you were actually doing.

As near as I have been able to tell, the diagrams don't change much. In Yoo Sin, the knee-level side kicks are added one each after the U-shaped punches, so it doesn't really disturb where the form goes. It does change the move number, technically. However, we aren't ever quized or asked about the origins of the forms. On a board in our classroom is a paper with the names of the forms, and a brief blurb of why it is named such, but its more for those interested than anything else. I have done reading on why the forms are called such, the symbol, etc, but its more out of my own search for knowledge than anything else.

Do you guys still do the same colour belt forms?

Yes, we do, with one additional form our GM added for hi orange belt. You would probably see some differences in them if I showed them to you. Also, Won Hyo never ends right. It always finishes one stance length to the right, I believe.

I'm going to try to record myself doing some of my forms sometime, and see if I can post them on my Facebook page, or to YouTube. When and if I do, I'll let you know.

[hammer]

Also, Won Hyo never ends right. It always finishes one stance length to the right, I believe.

Same here...I've tried making adjustments on the extended front stances going back but I can't get back over either. One of the instructors I had would allow us to do the "Won Hyo shift" after completing the form so that we could get back to center for Yul Kok.

[DWx]

The ITF does it exactly that way still. I have to say I like the order we do them as each pattern teaches new concepts and techniques that follow on well from the previous patterns; e.g. Kwang-Gae is the first time you learn to do a consecutive kick, two side kicks where your body and hips face the same way, then in Juche at the next belt you do a hooking kick-side kick consecutively which now requires you to go from forward to side facing which is slightly more difficult, then in Choi-Yong you've got to do a reverse hooking kick-side kick which is even harder still because your hips do 180° first and you have to control your balance to get the side kick out.

Whether it is right or not, I've considered spending some time to learn some of these forms that I will not get a chance to learn. I'd be teaching myself in essence, but with the knowledge I have on how to do the techniques and move, I don't think I would have too much trouble with it. I'd just apply the techniques as I know them from my training. Who knows, I might learn something new.

That's cool. When I've got more time I'd love to learn Ko-Dang (which was replaced by Juche in our curriculum), just for the variety. TBH at your level you probably don't need teaching the concepts of how to do such and such a block or whatever even if the move is a new one; the methods are still the same. You're GM actually chose to miss out some of my favorite forms Eui Am is good and Sam-Il is a really nice pattern too, Juche not so much

I think its also nice to have 3 per belt level as you're spending years between gradings now and its just nice to have a lot of new stuff to work with over that time so you don't bored. The groups of 3 also usually contain 3 very different forms which means there's something for each body type. Like at 2nd dan you see the heavy powerful people choosing Choong-Jang as their competition form (we have to do one of the ones from our current grade) and the leggy lighter people tend to pick Juche

I kind of noticed that. I like Kwang Gae ok, and I felt I did it pretty well. I did take first at a tourney with that one. But I loved doing Gae Baek. It just felt like I was built for it. Lots of shorter, compact moves and combinations, and lots of power. However, we do a hopping side kick in place of where the jump side kick is in that form; another change the GM made.

Yeah I just feel that the groups of 3 compliment each other well because there's usually something for everyone. I used to do it as a hoping side kick too, its only recently I've been physically able to jump high enough to tuck the back leg up.

As near as I have been able to tell, the diagrams don't change much. In Yoo Sin, the knee-level side kicks are added one each after the U-shaped punches, so it doesn't really disturb where the form goes. It does change the move number, technically. However, we aren't ever quized or asked about the origins of the forms. On a board in our classroom is a paper with the names of the forms, and a brief blurb of why it is named such, but its more for those interested than anything else. I have done reading on why the forms are called such, the symbol, etc, but its more out of my own search for knowledge than anything else.

Ahh ok, that's cool. I just figured it'd probably be really confusing if the number of moves etc. didn't match up with what you were learning.

I'm going to try to record myself doing some of my forms sometime, and see if I can post them on my Facebook page, or to YouTube. When and if I do, I'll let you know.

I look forward to it I still have to get round to videoing mine sometime.

[DWx]

Also, Won Hyo never ends right. It always finishes one stance length to the right, I believe.

Same here...I've tried making adjustments on the extended front stances going back but I can't get back over either. One of the instructors I had would allow us to do the "Won Hyo shift" after completing the form so that we could get back to center for Yul Kok.

I've never had a problem with Won Hyo Because its symmetrical as far as the stances go its pretty easy to get back to the start eg: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N33l-AI7ghg watch his feet and the black line. But I guess if your stance length/width is slightly different to ours or the moves have been modified it wont work. Yul Gok is a little harder to get back: you need to be careful with what angle you take on the hooking block stances. Too much out to 45° and you haven't gone far enough forward to compensate for the jump going back. So its really like a 30° angle off centre.

[hammer]

I've never had a problem with Won Hyo Because its symmetrical as far as the stances go its pretty easy to get back to the start eg: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N33l-AI7ghg watch his feet and the black line. But I guess if your stance length/width is slightly different to ours or the moves have been modified it wont work. Yul Gok is a little harder to get back: you need to be careful with what angle you take on the hooking block stances. Too much out to 45° and you haven't gone far enough forward to compensate for the jump going back. So its really like a 30° angle off centre.

I just looked at the form in the video...there are a number of minor differences in the way we do Won Hyo, but the difference in Mr. Suska's form that brings him back to center is around 0:51 where he steps to his left before performing the last two moves. In our case we come back to a closed stance after the side kick so we end up to our right.

It's all good...

[DWx]

I've never had a problem with Won Hyo Because its symmetrical as far as the stances go its pretty easy to get back to the start eg: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N33l-AI7ghg watch his feet and the black line. But I guess if your stance length/width is slightly different to ours or the moves have been modified it wont work. Yul Gok is a little harder to get back: you need to be careful with what angle you take on the hooking block stances. Too much out to 45° and you haven't gone far enough forward to compensate for the jump going back. So its really like a 30° angle off centre.

I just looked at the form in the video...there are a number of minor differences in the way we do Won Hyo, but the difference in Mr. Suska's form that brings him back to center is around 0:51 where he steps to his left before performing the last two moves. In our case we come back to a closed stance after the side kick so we end up to our right.

It's all good...

Yeah thats weird now that you pointed that out. I've always put my foot down shoulder width after the kick, don't know why he crosses over.

[bushido_man96]

I've never had a problem with Won Hyo Because its symmetrical as far as the stances go its pretty easy to get back to the start eg: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N33l-AI7ghg watch his feet and the black line. But I guess if your stance length/width is slightly different to ours or the moves have been modified it wont work. Yul Gok is a little harder to get back: you need to be careful with what angle you take on the hooking block stances. Too much out to 45° and you haven't gone far enough forward to compensate for the jump going back. So its really like a 30° angle off centre.

I just looked at the form in the video...there are a number of minor differences in the way we do Won Hyo, but the difference in Mr. Suska's form that brings him back to center is around 0:51 where he steps to his left before performing the last two moves. In our case we come back to a closed stance after the side kick so we end up to our right.

It's all good...

Yeah thats weird now that you pointed that out. I've always put my foot down shoulder width after the kick, don't know why he crosses over.

I noticed the same. We put our foot down in a closed stance as well, landing the right foot right next to the left foot, both feet facing back to the starting direction, and then step out to the last two moves. That was the only difference I saw in footwork. Maybe I'm just too erratic with my feet.