Who Has/Hasn't The Right?

[sensei8]

I don't wish to sound disrespectful (and this is not directed at your group Sensei8), but when I hear the term "Menkyo Kaiden" applied to Okinawan / Japanese Karate - my first thoughts are "marketing".

My first thoughts are respect, not marketing.

As for what I would "suggest" is the Okinawan term for Menkyo Kaiden?... What is wrong with Sensei?

Nothing, when its used in its proper context, but I'm referring only about the Menkyo Kaiden. I believe that the Okinawan equivalent IS Menkyo Kaiden, nothing more...nothing less...nothing wrong with that, imho.

[sensei8]

Other Okinawan Karate awarded the Menkyo Kaiden...

Bushi Matsumura passed on his Menkyo Kaiden to his grandson, Nabe Matsumura.

Then...

Nabe Matsumura passed on his Menkyo Kaiden to his nephew...Soken Hohan.

Then...

As I've already mentioned within this thread....Hohan Soken gave his Menkyo Kaiden to Fusei Kise prior to his death in 1982.

Then...

Isao Kise, son of Fusei Kise, just might end up with his own Menkyo Kaiden from his dad, when and if that time ever presents itself.

That's an impressive line of OKINAWAN Karateka's that have awarded as well as received the Menkyo Kaiden. A certificate that's...well...Japanese.

I could, I suppose, award my most senior student the Menkyo Kaiden, but I'm not in the Sokeship lineage, and in that, I have NO RIGHT.

[sojobo]

That's an impressive line of OKINAWAN Karateka's that have awarded as well as received the Menkyo Kaiden. A certificate that's...well...Japanese.

Well, it's four anyway - within the same ryu-ha.

Point is, the Menkyo system is NOT traditionally Okinawan - as much as people want it to be - it isn't.

Sojobo

[tallgeese]

Regardless of it's origin, you're seeing the concept out there in other arts. Even in modern origin American based arts.

I'm sure it started as an Okinawanian concept, but obviously it's been adopted by other arts of other national origins. This, I have no problem with.

Let's face it, it's a pretty good idea. It establihes a heirarchy based on the wishes of the founder and his designated line. It also establishes a sort of history.

So, regardless of origin, why not adopt it if it suits one's needs.

[MasterPain]

Regardless of it's origin, you're seeing the concept out there in other arts. Even in modern origin American based arts.

I'm sure it started as an Okinawanian concept, but obviously it's been adopted by other arts of other national origins. This, I have no problem with.

Let's face it, it's a pretty good idea. It establihes a heirarchy based on the wishes of the founder and his designated line. It also establishes a sort of history.

So, regardless of origin, why not adopt it if it suits one's needs.

Christmas trees are now very much an American tradition, despite being German. Kyu and dan ranking came from a Japanese boardgame, and are now practically universal in martial arts.

[isshinryu5toforever]

The idea of do vs jutsu isn't inherent in Okinawan martial arts either, but it has definitely been adopted by some schools along with rank, organizational practices, and the idea of a hard syllabus. If you wanted to be really difficult about all this, then sensei wouldn't be a correct term either. Okinawa had its own language and was far more influenced by China than Japan during the development of its martial arts. Therefore, we would have to go back and find out what the titles of martial arts masters in Okinawa were back in at least the 1800s, farther back if you want to find an equivalent for the Menkyo system, which they might not have even had. If Okinawa has to speak Japanese, then it's not so far fetched that they would take on a few of Japan's titles and rankings.

The idea of Menkyo has a long history in Japanese koryu arts, which may be where the sticking point is, but a menkyo itself is just a license. Your driver's license is a type of menkyo. I think a school could make its own choice as to whether they wish to follow the ubiquitous kyu/dan system or the menkyo system. If it was all for marketing, why would you ever want to follow the menkyo system outside of Japan? Kyu ranks can be gotten quite quickly, as little as a month or two depending on the school (I won't argue about quality), and offer people, especially children, very quick satisfaction. In the menkyo system, it not just can, but WILL be years before you move to the next level. It's more akin to an apprenticeship than what westerners think of an East Asian martial art.

Just because menkyo is most often awarded by a traditional, Koryu art, doesn't mean that is always MUST be awarded by a Koryu art. As for a true Okinawan equivalent, this sheds a small amount of light on it: http://karatejutsu.blogspot.com/2007/05/guest-post-menjo-menkyo-kaiden.html

However, when you consider the dialectic differences between Japanese and Okinawan that exist anyways, it sounds like menjo may be little more than a difference in pronunciation. The same idea expressed by different words.

[sensei8]

That's an impressive line of OKINAWAN Karateka's that have awarded as well as received the Menkyo Kaiden. A certificate that's...well...Japanese.

Well, it's four anyway - within the same ryu-ha.

Point is, the Menkyo system is NOT traditionally Okinawan - as much as people want it to be - it isn't.

Sojobo

Yeah, you got me there, I only listed 4 from the same ryuha, but I can list many more.

I surrender to the fact that the Menkyo system is NOT traditionally Okinawan. Japanese don't own the Menkyo system - as much as people want it to be - they don't. Okinawans use the Menkyo system - as much as people don't want them to - but they still use it.

[sensei8]

The idea of do vs jutsu isn't inherent in Okinawan martial arts either, but it has definitely been adopted by some schools along with rank, organizational practices, and the idea of a hard syllabus. If you wanted to be really difficult about all this, then sensei wouldn't be a correct term either. Okinawa had its own language and was far more influenced by China than Japan during the development of its martial arts. Therefore, we would have to go back and find out what the titles of martial arts masters in Okinawa were back in at least the 1800s, farther back if you want to find an equivalent for the Menkyo system, which they might not have even had. If Okinawa has to speak Japanese, then it's not so far fetched that they would take on a few of Japan's titles and rankings.

The idea of Menkyo has a long history in Japanese koryu arts, which may be where the sticking point is, but a menkyo itself is just a license. Your driver's license is a type of menkyo. I think a school could make its own choice as to whether they wish to follow the ubiquitous kyu/dan system or the menkyo system. If it was all for marketing, why would you ever want to follow the menkyo system outside of Japan? Kyu ranks can be gotten quite quickly, as little as a month or two depending on the school (I won't argue about quality), and offer people, especially children, very quick satisfaction. In the menkyo system, it not just can, but WILL be years before you move to the next level. It's more akin to an apprenticeship than what westerners think of an East Asian martial art.

Just because menkyo is most often awarded by a traditional, Koryu art, doesn't mean that is always MUST be awarded by a Koryu art. As for a true Okinawan equivalent, this sheds a small amount of light on it: http://karatejutsu.blogspot.com/2007/05/guest-post-menjo-menkyo-kaiden.html

However, when you consider the dialectic differences between Japanese and Okinawan that exist anyways, it sounds like menjo may be little more than a difference in pronunciation. The same idea expressed by different words.

A very solid post!!

I find myself defending my Soke for a decision that he, and he alone made when he awarded the Menkyo Kaiden to our Dai-Soke; and I feel like I shouldn't have to...but I do for some reason or another anyway.

[isshinryu5toforever]

I think we all have a tendency to stick up for something we partake in, especially if it's a big part of our life.