Who Has/Hasn't The Right?

[isshinryu5toforever]

It was my understanding as well that Menkyo is generally a Japanese tradition. The same goes with the idea of Budo, or heck the idea of uniformity.

[sensei8]

The reason I asked was because the Menkyo system, is uniquely Japanese. It does not apply to Okinawan arts like Karate in any shape or form.

Are you saying that no Okinawan arts practice/use/etc Menkyo Kaiden?

Historically - it does not exist. If modern groups have made it up, then that’s their business - but it is not how Okinawan arts were taught.

That’s not to say they are any better or worse, but traditionally Okinawan dojo did not follow the Menkyo pattern.

Sojobo

I know for a fact that there are many Okinawan karate styles that have awarded the Menkyo Kaiden. It might be Japanese, but, the Japanese don't own the exclusive right, or they shouldn't. It's possible that my Soke saw the value of the Menkyo Kaiden within the Japanese systems, and adopted it into our By-Laws...I don't know because I wasn't there when our By-Laws were created, nor was I there when our Soke decided to actually award it to our Dai-Soke; it was his right.

In the scope of this topic, I'd say both Japanese AND Okinawan Karate has the right to award the Menkyo Kaiden. It's not really for me to say either way because I might feel one way or another, but, I'll never have the right to award the MK because I'm not in the Sokeship lineage, nor do I want to be.

[JohnASE]

I am confused as to why you would ask such a thing?

LOL...Seeing that this forum is for discussing things concerning the martial arts...I create most of my topics/thread, like this one, for the sake of us to discuss 'it' amongst ourselves; to have a friendly and informative conversation. Nothing more, nothing less.

I found this thread both interesting and educational.

[isshinryu5toforever]

I'm almost certain that's what your Soke did. The Japanese use Menkyo Kaiden for a lot of things including but not limited to: martial arts, calligraphy, and tea ceremony.

It only makes sense that modern Okinawan martial arts would adapt many things from their Japanese counterparts. There is a close relationship between the two countries today. The belt system, rank order, and even the way classes are run came from Japan. For a lot of Okinawan systems, even something as simple as laying out an order to the basics came from Shotokan. I think the only real point is that it's not tradition in Okinawa to use the Menkyo system. That certainly doesn't mean it can't be used.

[sojobo]

I think the only real point is that it's not tradition in Okinawa to use the Menkyo system. That certainly doesn't mean it can't be used.

It doesn't, but I see little point in awarding a title which, historically, has nothing to do with the ancestry of the art – the Menkyo system is all about preserving the ryu - what is wrong with keeping an Okinawan ryu Okinawan?

Another point to bear in mind when we talk about “who awards the right" - is that the Koryu dojo that awarded Menkyo Kaiden, did/do not run in the democratic fashion that many large Karate associations do today - ie with bye-laws and councils etc.

They were dictatorships run from the top down by one guy.

Sojobo

[sensei8]

Just for grins and giggles...Roberta Trias is Hanshi and Menkyo Kaiden...her discipline is...Okinawan Shuri-ryu.

Because her Menkyo Kaiden was issued within an Okinawan organization; does it mean nothing? And/or....should it be stripped from her? And/or...should she be shunned because of was awarded the Menkyo Kaiden?

Other noteworthy Okinawan's have issued the Menkyo Kaiden. For example...Hohan Soken gave his Menkyo Kaiden to Fusei Kise prior to his death in 1982.

Sounds to me that NOBODY "owns" the exclusive rights to this title, and in that, both Japanese AND Okinawan organizations can issue one if they want to.

Does anybody know the Okinawan equivalent of the Menkyo Kaiden?

[sojobo]

Just for grins and giggles...Roberta Trias is Hanshi and Menkyo Kaiden...her discipline is...Okinawan Shuri-ryu.

Because her Menkyo Kaiden was issued within an Okinawan organization; does it mean nothing? And/or....should it be stripped from her? And/or...should she be shunned because of was awarded the Menkyo Kaiden?

Robert A Trias - was a man.

[edit] Correction, his daughter is called Roberta - apologies.

[sojobo]

Sounds to me that NOBODY "owns" the exclusive rights to this title, and in that, both Japanese AND Okinawan organizations can issue one if they want to.

I don't wish to sound disrespectful (and this is not directed at your group Sensei8), but when I hear the term "Menkyo Kaiden" applied to Okinawan / Japanese Karate - my first thoughts are "marketing".

It's almost as if schools have come across the words and by stating that their senior instructors have this "license" it puts them well and above the average 10th dan soke - that runs the other dojo in the mall.

As for what I would "suggest" is the Okinawan term for Menkyo Kaiden?... What is wrong with Sensei?

Sojobo

[sojobo]

Just out of interest,

Who did Robert Trias receive his Menkyo Kaiden from?

Sojobo

[sensei8]

Just out of interest,

Who did Robert Trias receive his Menkyo Kaiden from?

Sojobo

I don't believe Mr. Trias ever received a Menkyo Kaiden.