McDojos

[tallgeese]

Correct, chambering in karate was never intended as part of a striking element or training method for anything. It was part of the tuite set of movements for destroying joints. All original movements of the like we part of this line of study. Most of which has been lost to time save a few lines still operating out of that sphere.

Oyata's Kempo group is one, I don't recall the exact name now. But the chamber is probably one of the most misunderstood factors of karate.

[brickshooter]

I am 145 pounds, i am decently strong for my size, but nothing to brag about. I am a 2nd degree brown belt in my system and do not have extremely powerful strikes.

An athletic 145lbs is borderline weight to knock most people out with bare knuckles. You just need to incorporate impact training (punching bag, punching blocks, makiwara, etc) into your training.

I would argue that you can be much lighter than 145 pounds and still knock people out. Here is a quote from an article that I read some time back.

"A study of seven Olympic boxers in weight classes ranging from flyweight to super heavyweight showed a range of 447 to 1,066 pounds of peak punching force. Energy transferred from punch to target varied widely depending on how heavy the boxers' hands and gloves were, how fast they punched, and how rigidly they held their wrists. The three flyweights, interestingly, delivered more oomph than all but the two super heavyweights."

The full article can be found here: http://www.connectsavannah.com/news/article/102548/

Given that a quick search of the internet will reveal that it is generally agreed that 400 pounds of punching force to the temple will knock just about anybody out, I think that it is safe to say that even a very small person (flyweights are a maximum of 112 lbs) can be a force to be reckoned with, given they have put in the effort to get good at punching.

Also, I don't claim to practice karate in it's entirety, but I do study it to an extent, and I don't really think that the "fist chamber" was ever supposed to have anything to do with the generation of power or development of technique in beginners. Rather, I suspect that it was originally intended to be used in a grabbing and pulling manner on the opponents sleeve, lapel, and maybe even bare arm. This is further supported by the fact the the word "Hikite," which is what the "fist chamber" is actually called, translates to "pulling hand."

A source to support this includes Choki Motobu's book “Watashi no Karate-jutsu" where Motobu demonstrates the naihanchi kata and then shows some applications. In the applications, Motubu can clearly be seen using the hikite found in the kata to pull his opponent by the arm into his punch, elbow, or block. I am not sure, but I think it was he who said "Never bring your hand back empty."

Well, I have to be off to class.

Best wishes.

Problem with the lightweight test is that in actual matches, I rarely see lightweights knocking anyone out despite having picture perfect techniques.

IMO, the lighter a person, the better his skill needs to be. And in an actual fight where both attacker and defender is constantly moving, it's very difficult to pull of a perfect strike.

Re the chambered fist. The hitkite hand is universal in every Karate style. But Karate was designed so that a single motion often represents several applications. Therefore, IMO the hitkite hand doesn't preclude the using the chambered hand to generate power particularly since it's being used by the non-striking hand.

Currently, I believe that some Shukokai and Shotokan (Asai) schools do use the chambered fist to exaggerate upper body rotation during training in order to generate more power.

[MMA_Jim]

I am 145 pounds, i am decently strong for my size, but nothing to brag about. I am a 2nd degree brown belt in my system and do not have extremely powerful strikes.

An athletic 145lbs is borderline weight to knock most people out with bare knuckles. You just need to incorporate impact training (punching bag, punching blocks, makiwara, etc) into your training.

I would argue that you can be much lighter than 145 pounds and still knock people out. Here is a quote from an article that I read some time back.

"A study of seven Olympic boxers in weight classes ranging from flyweight to super heavyweight showed a range of 447 to 1,066 pounds of peak punching force. Energy transferred from punch to target varied widely depending on how heavy the boxers' hands and gloves were, how fast they punched, and how rigidly they held their wrists. The three flyweights, interestingly, delivered more oomph than all but the two super heavyweights."

The full article can be found here: http://www.connectsavannah.com/news/article/102548/

Given that a quick search of the internet will reveal that it is generally agreed that 400 pounds of punching force to the temple will knock just about anybody out, I think that it is safe to say that even a very small person (flyweights are a maximum of 112 lbs) can be a force to be reckoned with, given they have put in the effort to get good at punching.

Also, I don't claim to practice karate in it's entirety, but I do study it to an extent, and I don't really think that the "fist chamber" was ever supposed to have anything to do with the generation of power or development of technique in beginners. Rather, I suspect that it was originally intended to be used in a grabbing and pulling manner on the opponents sleeve, lapel, and maybe even bare arm. This is further supported by the fact the the word "Hikite," which is what the "fist chamber" is actually called, translates to "pulling hand."

A source to support this includes Choki Motobu's book “Watashi no Karate-jutsu" where Motobu demonstrates the naihanchi kata and then shows some applications. In the applications, Motubu can clearly be seen using the hikite found in the kata to pull his opponent by the arm into his punch, elbow, or block. I am not sure, but I think it was he who said "Never bring your hand back empty."

Well, I have to be off to class.

Best wishes.

 

Problem with the lightweight test is that in actual matches, I rarely see lightweights knocking anyone out despite having picture perfect techniques.

 

IMO, the lighter a person, the better his skill needs to be. And in an actual fight where both attacker and defender is constantly moving, it's very difficult to pull of a perfect strike.Re the chambered fist. The hitkite hand is universal in every Karate style. But Karate was designed so that a single motion often represents several applications. Therefore, IMO the hitkite hand doesn't preclude the using the chambered hand to generate power particularly since it's being used by the non-striking hand.

Currently, I believe that some Shukokai and Shotokan (Asai) schools do use the chambered fist to exaggerate upper body rotation during training in order to generate more power.

Granted, but also keep in mind that most of these fights you're watching are between two professionals- a pro against an average joe is a different story altogether.

There was a pro's vs joe's episode a few years ago. Twice during this series have they pitted average joe's against pro boxers. First up was Roy Jones Jr, who literally kept his hands at his waists and let the joes take their best shots- while he kept calling them out on their smack talk and eventually just smack them around. He took it easy on them and decided not to knock them out.

Not so the second time around- I believe is was Paquiao and if not wa another name 145lb boxer against the joes. Some of the joe's were rather big (about 6'2, 230lb of muscle). This time the boxer decided to hurt the joes, and the speed and power he had showcased that a 145lb guy had no problem whatsoever dropping another person close to twice his size. Its difficult to find online, but if I ever find it again, I'll try to link it so you can watch.

[iLight]

If you're being taught well then you'll be the guy everyone wants to be taught by in the future.

[shotokanz]

What are you saying you would like to see happen Jim? I don't know what your endgame is. I'm glad you are pleased with your current training, and I'm sorry you feel like all of your other training was garbage. Alot of martial artists live well rounded lives. Not everyone can commit their lives to being an elite fighter. I for one, don't have any interest in fighting professionally. I train at a traditional karate dojo twice a week and work out at home 1-2 days a week. On a good week I probably get 10 hours of martial arts practice. This doesn't put me in line for a UFC belt but I'm tougher than any of my friends that don't train. I'm pretty confident that if you rounded up 10 random guys at a supermarket, I could run through most of them in a 1-1 fight. That's good enough for me. I own a small business that needs me, I live on 20 acres that takes a lot of work to maintain, my farm equipment needs maintanence, I have a wife who requires my attention, animals to feed, I serve on the ministry at church, etc. etc. So basically martial arts and fighting are just one aspect of my life. I know I couldn't win a match against the elite fighters in my area. I'm OK with that. I'm pleased with my dojo and my martial arts training. I get what I want out of it and in time I'll have my blackbelt. How does that have any affect on you? If Shane Carwin jumps me in a parking lot; I guess I'm out of luck. Unless someone gets it on video. Then I'll be doing OK.

well freaking said! (i did read most of the other posts after this too as well). In my opinion, i am very good at shotokan and getting better at muay thai and BJJ (had to leave my shotokan school for a couple of reasons, joined an MMA gym since that, still practice shotokan on my own time though) and i feel i can use it to defend myself in the average situation, which is why i learned it in the first place.

Infact i HAVE had to use it a few times to defend myself "on da streetz", and i'm confident the only reason i came out on top is because i was trained the way i was. Is my technique perfect? No. Would i have come out on top if the guys who attacked me were professionally trained fighters? No. But the fact of the matter is, despite not being able to hang with my mma coach in sparring (and if i could...honestly..i think it'd be time for me to get a new coach lol), i can beat the crap out of the average guy that 9.9 times outta 10 i'm going to run into and actually have to use my martial arts training on. I have a brown belt, not a black belt, and that doesn't in any way affect my ability to fight.

My technique is far from "textbook" mostly because of some freak accidents that have messed up my elbows and knees from a long time ago, but i still hit like a freaking truck. Would my "chambered reverse punch" look as fluid as a 3rd degree black belt? Heck no. Would it still knock every ounce of wind out of your body if i hit you with it? Absolutely.

[bushido_man96]

There was a pro's vs joe's episode a few years ago. Twice during this series have they pitted average joe's against pro boxers. First up was Roy Jones Jr, who literally kept his hands at his waists and let the joes take their best shots- while he kept calling them out on their smack talk and eventually just smack them around. He took it easy on them and decided not to knock them out.

Not so the second time around- I believe is was Paquiao and if not wa another name 145lb boxer against the joes. Some of the joe's were rather big (about 6'2, 230lb of muscle). This time the boxer decided to hurt the joes, and the speed and power he had showcased that a 145lb guy had no problem whatsoever dropping another person close to twice his size. Its difficult to find online, but if I ever find it again, I'll try to link it so you can watch.

That would actually be a lot of fun to watch.

[Lee M]

I think it's too easy for someone to label a school McDojo plenty of teachers with tiny classes are great at it.

There are Mcdojo's teachers that are better at marketing then teaching.

Some good some bad.

I think I saw one of the shows Pro V Joe pretty brutal stuff.