McDojos

[MMA_Jim]

I am a little confused at what you would consider the criteria for what a black belt means. Maybe I am misinterpreting your post but it seems to be saying that if you can't step into a ring with a professional fighter then you must have learned from a McDojo and your black belt is worthless.

To an extent- yes. Im not saying you have to be competent in the cage, but in your area of expertise, you must be able to somewhat handle your own. This doesnt mean that you have to win, but if you're easily walked over by someone else, something is lacking. If you're supposed to be a black belt karate instructor, but your striking power is insufficient to break yourself out of a wet paper bag, then yeah you might want to second guess the legitimacy of this guy's belt. Again, Im not saying you have to be able to take on a thai fighter and win, but you should be competent enough that you can beat an average joe with ease. In the event that you're a little too old to be fighting, then your pupils become your measuring stick (i.e. who have you produced, and how good a fighter are they).

I remember seeing a video on YouTube of a demonstration put on by Master Shinjo in Okinawa. All you see is the upper torso of an older Okinawan gentlemen and he is holding his arm out in front of him. Master Shinjo then proceeds to hit his arm with a Bat there by breaking the bat over his arm. The video then pans out and you see the man grab his crutches and walk off the stage, he appeared to have some sort of muscular dystrophy. Now I found this to be very impressive on many levels. In reality I could probably beat this man to a pulp considering he could barley walk, but does that mean he is not deserved of a black belt? Setting a very stringent sweeping set of criteria over multiple disciples is a very ignorant way of looking at the martial arts. Ultimately it’s up to the individual who wants to learn, they have something in mind they want to learn and they pick a school accordingly. Then it becomes buyer beware.

So the guy is a black belt at getting beaten by a stick... Seriously, what does that have to do with anything? I dont mean to be the bearer of bad news, but black belts are not for everyone. Sounds a little communist when I hear people say "anyone can do it!" The theory of the martial art is made so that anyone is capable of doing it (for the most part) but if you lack the proper drive, Im not going to lower my standards for you. You may as well say that PhD's are for everyone. When I say a black belt has to be able to fight (or was in the past) or has the knowledge to, I adhere to that.

Most people dont know what to look for, thats why we need other people who know what they're talking about and what they're doing to step in and say "you are incompetent." The buyer cant beware, because that buyer doesnt have the training and education to know any better.

Lets compare your analogies elsewhere in the world: When we give a cardiac surgeon his degree we expect that he can cut and apply what hes known, right? So what if we lower the standards so that everyone should be able to get their medical license to practice. After all, if we held other people back it wouldnt be fair, would it? So now we end up with a bunch of people who have no idea what they're doing, and patients are dying or doing very poorly as a result. So we say, "let the buyer beware" but what does a regular joe know about cardiac surgery? Nothing! Thats why hes going to a Dr in the first place! Hes unable to make the proper decision as to whos the best person to go to unless hes given the proper information.

[Sokusen]

So then whats the bar? Where is set? If your ability to fight is your criteria then who in your mind is the person someone needs to hold there own against? In the majority of dojos around the world there is a nice mix of men and women who study. In general, I would say most women in those dojos could not stand up to a 200-to 250lb male in a full contact match. I know this may sound like a very chauvinistic statement but let’s be honest when you give up a 100lbs to your opponent who is skilled in fighting then the out come is not going to end well. Any way, back on track, even though those women maybe good at there martial art and be able to produce power in there strikes they don't deserve a black belt because they are not as good of a fighter as there male counter part? Or is it possible that there is more to Martial Arts then just being a good fighter? I say yes. Things like respect, fortitude, courtesy, modesty, knowledge and other criteria that are tough to put into words, are all things I think of when I think of the martial arts and what is needed to obtain a black belt. These can be applied to fighting but they can be applied to a million other things in life that are far more important.

So the guy is a black belt at getting beaten by a stick... Seriously, what does that have to do with anything? I dont mean to be the bearer of bad news, but black belts are not for everyone.

If fighting is your only criteria then yes you're right. But it isn't, or at least in my book it isn't. By your tag name you obviously enjoy studying mixed martial arts, which tamashiwara (the art of breaking) is not apart of. So I am not going to get into the benifits of it.

You use the comparison of a surgeon to make your point but unfortunately it doesn't work. A Surgeon does surgery so if he/she sucks at being a surgeon then there is a problem. But the martial arts isn’t just about being a good fighter, if fighting is not your forte then that doesn’t mean you’re not a quality martial artists.

Now I agree a person needs to be able to demonstrate an apptitude of what they learned. But it shouldn't be all about fighting. When it just becomes about fighting to much of the art gets lost.

[MMA_Jim]

So then whats the bar? Where is set? If your ability to fight is your criteria then who in your mind is the person someone needs to hold there own against? In the majority of dojos around the world there is a nice mix of men and women who study. In general, I would say most women in those dojos could not stand up to a 200-to 250lb male in a full contact match. I know this may sound like a very chauvinistic statement but let’s be honest when you give up a 100lbs to your opponent who is skilled in fighting then the out come is not going to end well.

The odds dont have to be stacked against them. Women fight women, men fight men, and your opponent doesnt have to significantly outweigh you.

Any way, back on track, even though those women maybe good at there martial art and be able to produce power in there strikes they don't deserve a black belt because they are not as good of a fighter as there male counter part?

Im not comparing everyone to a 200lb diesel pro fighter. Again, for the most part, Im comparing people to their peers or joe average. If such a person cant generate power, then they obviously dont know how to hit and are therefore not very knowledgable.

Or is it possible that there is more to Martial Arts then just being a good fighter? I say yes. Things like respect, fortitude, courtesy, modesty, knowledge and other criteria that are tough to put into words, are all things I think of when I think of the martial arts and what is needed to obtain a black belt. These can be applied to fighting but they can be applied to a million other things in life that are far more important.

There may be plenty of things in life that you may weigh more than the ability to fight, but martial arts are about fighting, plain and simple. According to you, Martin Luther King Jr is a blackbelt (indeed a master!). Howabout Ghandi? Surely he too is at least deserving as grandmaster. Whatabout that nice boy from next door? He should have a black belt too. See how ludicrous this gets? Martial arts are about fighting, plain and simple. There are plenty of people that are black belts that are also nice guys, but there are just as many (dare I say probably more) that are jerks. They still have a black belt. At what point to you just absolve people from having no clue how to fight and allow them to wear a black belt?

If fighting is your only criteria then yes you're right. But it isn't, or at least in my book it isn't. By your tag name you obviously enjoy studying mixed martial arts, which tamashiwara (the art of breaking) is not apart of. So I am not going to get into the benifits of it.

The benefits of it? It was originally supposed to help people with the idea of developing power and striking through an object. People realized how much of a crowd pleaser it is and ran off with it.

You use the comparison of a surgeon to make your point but unfortunately it doesn't work. A Surgeon does surgery so if he/she sucks at being a surgeon then there is a problem. But the martial arts isn’t just about being a good fighter, if fighting is not your forte then that doesn’t mean you’re not a quality martial artists. .

Because being given a medical license isnt just about whether you can practice medicine effectively. Being nice, modest, and respectable are things that a Dr should be. So what if they know nothing about surgery?

See what I mean?

It works like a charm:

Definition of MARTIAL

1: of, relating to, or suited for war or a warrior

2: relating to an army or to military life

3: experienced in or inclined to war : warlike

Now I agree a person needs to be able to demonstrate an apptitude of what they learned. But it shouldn't be all about fighting. When it just becomes about fighting to much of the art gets lost.

Just the opposite occurs. Many of the "sport" martial arts stayed true to fighting. This is why people that train for MMA subscribe to particular skillsets when training. These styles kept themselve true and effective. Those who didnt lost their effectiveness significantly.

[rmurray]

What are you saying you would like to see happen Jim? I don't know what your endgame is. I'm glad you are pleased with your current training, and I'm sorry you feel like all of your other training was garbage. Alot of martial artists live well rounded lives. Not everyone can commit their lives to being an elite fighter. I for one, don't have any interest in fighting professionally. I train at a traditional karate dojo twice a week and work out at home 1-2 days a week. On a good week I probably get 10 hours of martial arts practice. This doesn't put me in line for a UFC belt but I'm tougher than any of my friends that don't train. I'm pretty confident that if you rounded up 10 random guys at a supermarket, I could run through most of them in a 1-1 fight. That's good enough for me. I own a small business that needs me, I live on 20 acres that takes a lot of work to maintain, my farm equipment needs maintanence, I have a wife who requires my attention, animals to feed, I serve on the ministry at church, etc. etc. So basically martial arts and fighting are just one aspect of my life. I know I couldn't win a match against the elite fighters in my area. I'm OK with that. I'm pleased with my dojo and my martial arts training. I get what I want out of it and in time I'll have my blackbelt. How does that have any affect on you? If Shane Carwin jumps me in a parking lot; I guess I'm out of luck. Unless someone gets it on video. Then I'll be doing OK.

[Sokusen]

Im not comparing everyone to a 200lb diesel pro fighter. Again, for the most part, Im comparing people to their peers or joe average. If such a person cant generate power, then they obviously dont know how to hit and are therefore not very knowledgable.

Your the one that brought the UFC into this when you said the fighters who lost were lying to themselves. They were experts in the areas that they studied and they lost fighting a better fighter. That doesn't mean they should forget what they learned and burn there black belts. The reason I used the example of woman fighting a man is in reality if woman has to defend herself it is going to be against a man, most likely bigger and meaner then herself. She most likely would not win a stand up fight against a man significantly larger with bad intent. But if she has properly studied the martial arts then her training will get her home safely. Not through a knockdown fight but more likely by avoiding the situation all together. I shouldn't be singling out women here because this lesson goes for men as well.

At what point to you just absolve people from having no clue how to fight and allow them to wear a black belt?

I never said a martial artist should't know how to fight I am only saying it is not the only criteria to be a black belt.

The benefits of it? It was originally supposed to help people with the idea of developing power and striking through an object. People realized how much of a crowd pleaser it is and ran off with it.

As well as building confidence, mental toughness and that over all yes I can attitude.

Because being given a medical license isnt just about whether you can practice medicine effectively. Being nice, modest, and respectable are things that a Dr should be. So what if they know nothing about surgery?

Then they are not surgeons. You specifically mentioned surgeons. There are several types of medical doctors out there that know nothing about surgery does that make them any less of a doctor? All martial artists aren't great fighters it doesn't make them any less of a martial artist.

Art

Noun expression

1. The making of objects, images, music ect. that are beautiful or express ideas.

2. An activity through which People express particular ideas

Edited March 31, 2011 by Sokusen

[MMA_Jim]

What are you saying you would like to see happen Jim? I don't know what your endgame is. I'm glad you are pleased with your current training, and I'm sorry you feel like all of your other training was garbage. Alot of martial artists live well rounded lives. Not everyone can commit their lives to being an elite fighter. I for one, don't have any interest in fighting professionally. I train at a traditional karate dojo twice a week and work out at home 1-2 days a week. On a good week I probably get 10 hours of martial arts practice. This doesn't put me in line for a UFC belt but I'm tougher than any of my friends that don't train. I'm pretty confident that if you rounded up 10 random guys at a supermarket, I could run through most of them in a 1-1 fight. That's good enough for me. I own a small business that needs me, I live on 20 acres that takes a lot of work to maintain, my farm equipment needs maintanence, I have a wife who requires my attention, animals to feed, I serve on the ministry at church, etc. etc. So basically martial arts and fighting are just one aspect of my life. I know I couldn't win a match against the elite fighters in my area. I'm OK with that. I'm pleased with my dojo and my martial arts training. I get what I want out of it and in time I'll have my blackbelt. How does that have any affect on you? If Shane Carwin jumps me in a parking lot; I guess I'm out of luck. Unless someone gets it on video. Then I'll be doing OK.

Thats the important part

[MMA_Jim]

Your the one that brought the UFC into this when you said the fighters who lost were lying to themselves. They were experts in the areas that they studied and they lost fighting a better fighter.

Yes, they were professional fighters themselves.... One person loses to another, fine they lost to the better fighter. 100 people in one style lose to 100 people of another style, one style is better than the other.

That doesn't mean they should forget what they learned and burn there black belts.

If you lose one or two, no. If you lose consistently.....

Then they are not surgeons. You specifically mentioned surgeons. There are several types of medical doctors out there that know nothing about surgery does that make them any less of a doctor? All martial artists aren't great fighters it doesn't make them any less of a martial artist.

We wouldnt want to hold martial artists to an unfair measuring stick, such as their ability to fight would we?

Art

Noun expression

1. The making of objects, images, music ect. that are beautiful or express ideas.

2. An activity through which People express particular ideas

Ok, so they're blackbelts at pretend fighting?

[Sokusen]

Yes, they were professional fighters themselves.... One person loses to another, fine they lost to the better fighter. 100 people in one style lose to 100 people of another style, one style is better than the other.

So now according to your criteria you have to be a great fighter and in a particular style to be considered a black belt in the martial arts. Well at least now I now where your coming from and we can agree to disagree.

[bushido_man96]

There is often too much attention, I feel, put on the cultural/philosophical aspects of what the Martial Arts are supposed to portray. I don't have any issues with schools that want to push that stuff, but, I don't think it is the job of the Martial Arts instructor to guide people on how to make the decisions of their lives. Morals and ethics should come from home life and whatever spiritual/religious followings one has. Mine came from my upbringing, not the Martial Arts.

When it boils down to it, a Martial Art's goal should absolutely be to produce students who know how to defend themselves, and black belts should be the pinnacle of that.

I do not feel that all "traditional" styles of Martial Arts are missing what is necessary to produce someone who is good at defending themselves. Like anything, there are bad apples out there, though, and its unfortunate that they cause others to have a false sense of security.

[Adonis]

There is often too much attention, I feel, put on the cultural/philosophical aspects of what the Martial Arts are supposed to portray. I don't have any issues with schools that want to push that stuff, but, I don't think it is the job of the Martial Arts instructor to guide people on how to make the decisions of their lives. Morals and ethics should come from home life and whatever spiritual/religious followings one has. Mine came from my upbringing, not the Martial Arts.

I am at a catch 22 with this. I agree and I don't with it. I don't like it when instructors try to push there own ideals of ethics in a group class. But with kids and teenagers, some may not have a good home life to learn from. So I think 1 on 1 Mentoring is very helpful. As regards to promotions and teaching. The fact is the student represents the instructor and the school. I Personally wouldn't want students who had questionable character representing me.

On a side note, Martial Arts teache's self defense however it should go far more into just the physical aspect of it. Word self defense, mental/emotional self defense. Alot of times the person we need to defend our selves against the most...is our selves!

I agree though with MMA_JIM not every one is cut out to be a black belt. Why cheapen an ART and go down the path of the McDojo (low Quality technique/training) By allowing people to be black belt with out solid basics. I know the word basics can mean diffrent things to diffent instructors. However a person earning a black belt should have a couple decent kicks and punches, and blocks, and have developed adequate timing, distance, speed, power to use them successfuly in a sparring match (resistening partner) alive training.

You don't need to spar full contact all the time, (loose students that way) Or be a cage fighter, or tournament fighter, but have something decent to stand on. The black belt should be respected, the person should be a decent guy, with decent skill set that can be applied. If not then all they have is sloppy technique with no real power or speed, so its basically bad, sloppy dance, coreagraphy that the person really got there black belt in.

End Rant!