Chambering

[rmurray]

To the OP. I was corrected for chambering too low (right above waist)also. I now chamber just below my pectoral muscle. It feels pretty good and I'm able to throw good punches from there.

I don't think the pull back is pseudoscience at all. I was taught and I beleive that the pull back trains the hips to work with the punch and generate more power. As you advance in karate the hips learn to work on their own so the pullback is less necessary for a strong punch. But you train using the pullback and you always know you have a hand (or foot)chambered and you know where your next technique is coming from and generally what position your body is going to be in. I couldn't imagine trying to fight without it. It is so base in my style of karate.

[honoluludesktop]

..........I don't think the pull back is pseudoscience at all.............

That's not the point of the post, rather that Newton's law is incorrectly used to explain the purpose of "pull back". But regardless of what we were taught, the pull back by itself doesn't train the hip. Again, when you stand in "yoi" and pull back, it doesn't cause your hip to go anywhere.

I am not saying the pull back is not important. I believe it is, but not in the ways that are normally used to explain why.

[ninjanurse]

I agree-the pull back does not necessarily"train" the hip (although it does play a part ).....and it is a difficult concept to explain to a student. I go with a simplistic explanation using the example of stepping on some ones foot or stomping on someones foot. Which one hurts more/does more damage? The faster the transfer of energy occurs at the point of impact the stronger the blow....a theory similar to slapping the mat when being thrown. Pulling the hand back helps facilitate this transfer( as does the "winding" and "unwinding" of the hip).

That being said.....during Basics the concept of "Push and Pull" is drilled to train the hip rotation and it's relationship to the generation of power. As students become more practiced they discover the nuances of hip movement and are able to apply them in varying degrees during sparring and self defense-the concept of equal and opposite then becomes relative to the speed and distance the hand travels to its' target so one hand may move faster or travel farther than the other thus no longer "equal".

Edited January 27, 2011 by ninjanurse

[sensei8]

No pull back = a push and nothing more.

[tayl0124]

This post is so old, but I am new here so let me throw in my 2¢.

First about pull-back. I truly believe that it is used as a training tool. Once a karateka truly understands Sanchin ( if you practice it for many many years) you can transfer the knowledge that you learned from the push-pull technique, to gojuryu's hard soft technique. What I am saying is that you learn how to apply the same concept using sanchin rather than push pull.

Now onto hand position. Don't forget what Tatsuo Shimabuku said when he was once asked by a group of karateka sitting a table drinking. He asked them which of the bottles on the table was the best. They argued that this or that one was the best, and then he replied with a simple yet well thought out message, "all the bottles were good. All of them served a purpose: to hold what they were intended to." That being said, I prefer to use what we train. I am fortunate enough to train with some people that know very well the capabilities of the body, but each style could argue which is better.

Next time you want to test the difference have someone hold your hand in each position while trying to push them away. Which position do you feel stronger in?? I would argue that with your fist at you hip you are able to use your entire body to push your fist forward, whereas the higher you place your fist, the more you tend to use just your arm.

[bushido_man96]

Next time you want to test the difference have someone hold your hand in each position while trying to push them away. Which position do you feel stronger in?? I would argue that with your fist at you hip you are able to use your entire body to push your fist forward, whereas the higher you place your fist, the more you tend to use just your arm.

I think only if you are not used to using your hip all the time. We hold our hands higher, to our ribs, instead of on the hip, but we still use good hip movement to engage power.

[shadowspawn]

At one time, I too believed that pull back was the rational to punching basics, but now know that "equal and opposite reaction" is not the reason why. If that were true, standing in "yoi" punching by the arm as hard as possible should cause you to twist or fall over, but you don't. Newton's law predicts the force returning to your fist when you hit a wall, or to your leg when pushing down on your foot.

There is a lot of pseudoscience that was used in the 50s to introduce Karate to the West that still remain with us today. Some of the worst have been dismissed over time ("the twisting fist improves accuracy, like spinning a bullet"), but many like "pull back" continue to remain with us.

On the other hand, many unexplained phenomena are "poo, poo(ed)" because they are offered without explanation. The "unbend-able arm" is often dismissed as a trick because no scientifically believable reason is offered. Fact is that it is a demonstration of the "stretch" muscles that are not felt when engaged.

IMO, its sometimes best to follow the conventions without thinking too much, but that goes against modern nature. >_<

I've never heard of this rationale. One was that as one hand strikes forward (tsuki), the other strikes backwards (empi) effectively training two techniques in one motion. The other is to exaggerate the rotation of the torso in addition to the rotation you get from the hip. Kind of like how if you were to try to spin a coin (without flicking), you'd get better results by applying a force to both sides and spinning them in the same circular direction as opposed to spin it by only applying a force to one side. As per the thread, we've had two locations in our school: fist at level of sternum and fist at level of last rib. The reasons for this have already been mentioned but I do feel I should add that you will meet more resistance punching from last rib since you have to raise your fist slightly as you strike. Still the amount of energy exerted by raising your hand a couple inches doesn't compare to the amount you'd waste by holding your fist tense at sternum level.

@tayl: I think it just feels that way because your arm is tense the whole way through. I've practiced both methods. The hand at sternum feels more powerful than hand at last rib, but having your hand at your last rib allows your bicep and forearm to relax and thus feels faster. Both methods seem to work well for the people who use them so I'd say that both methods are probably very effective in their own ways.

[Martial Walrus]

I've always been taught to keep my fist high up by my ribs. I think this helps develop power better than having it down by the hips. For the fist to be that low, the elbow has to already be partially extended. When you punch from this position, the elbow only moves through about half of its range of motion. However, if the fist begins by the ribs, then the elbow is not only completely bent, but also pulled back farther. This causes both the elbow and shoulder joints to travel through a larger range of motion. I feel like it would also translate better into punching from a raised guard, since your hands are going to be closer to your ribs than they will be to your hips.

Like others have stated, one purpose of practicing the chambered punch is to help develop rotation in the hips and shoulders. However, I think it is also useful for getting used to pulling an opponent towards you with one hand while using the other to strike. Also, like tallgeese mentioned, a lot of blocks can be used as part of a joint lock by pulling the person's wrist to your rips/waits and striking to the elbow with the forearm.

[MaxMarks]

The whole chambering thing is an effect of kata from back when they were actually moving textbooks. As it was explained to me, the chamber is not in fact a ready position, but part of the set of movements that indicated a push/ pull motion of a joint manipulation. In this case, a standing arm bar designed to destroy the elbow.

Interesting! I've never heard that explanation. I've often wondered about other hand positions in chamber like cup and saucer (one hand in chamber and the other on top of the chambered hand) and if they relate to locks.

Chamber position relates to style. I agree with everyone here - hands up when you're fighting.