Define EFFECTIVE!

[sojobo]

I disagree. The point of the Martial Arts, any Martial Art, first and foremost, should be effective self-defense. All the other stuff are what should be the by-products of training, and not the other way around. If this is not the case, then I feel the original point of the Arts becomes lost.

Granted, all martial arts have at their core the study of a martial skill - be that ancient or modern.

However; the end result of studying a martial art does not always have to be the acquisition of self defence skills (in the modern context).

Swords were created for one reason; as an effective weapon used to kill in self-defense, be it in single combat, or in war. It wasn't created because someone thought it would be a fun, spiritual object to dance around with.

When I practice Iaido, I do so with focus and intent - and of course martial technique (no point otherwise) however these skills alone would not allow me to defend myself in a pub brawl (unless I had my sword with me lol). But that does not mean Iaido is not a martial art, because it is a specific martial skill that one has chosen to study.

If this were the case, then the argument about whether XMA is a "true" Martial Art would effectively be over. But how many here feel that XMA is a "true" Martial Art?

No, because XMA has no basis in real martial technique (ancient or present day).

Sojobo

[sojobo]

You seem obsessed with martial arts only being about self defence.

Self defence is a facet of some martial arts teachings and a by-product of good training in many cases but it is just that a facet. For many it is not the overriding reason to study Martial Arts and doesn’t need to be imo.

There may be another end result; that's fine. Along the way, though, the aquisition of Martial Skill in a timely manner to allow for effective self-defense should be the core, as you mentioned. Self-defense should always be there. I think we agree there, perhaps.

Well bushido_man96, I think we are nearly there lol. I would say that "martial technique" should always be there, as "self defence" implies something a little different.

I guess for the sake of Sensei8's thread, we will have to call a truce - and anyway, maybe this sort of stuff is better realised in the dojo (or even better a cold beer after ).

Sojobo

[sojobo]

Very interested Sojobo. Thanks for the info. I'll be sure to order that one next book order.

I'm part of the Shintani Group in Canada but before you judge, we are a club that is trying to do things differently. I know there is a lot of interesting politics surrounding the different Wado groups. I spend a lot of time reseaching traditional Wado as compared to what is considered Shintani Wado. I first noticed it when a another member pointed out some youtube videos and the body movements stuck out like an eyesore.

Thanks again.

You are welcome Jeffrey.

Roberto is a friend of mine. He also has some great dvd's

Here is a link to his website:

http://www.wado-ryu-book.com/wadoryu-karatedvd.php

Sojobo

[sensei8]

At what stage is a Karateka knowledgable enough to be able to decide whether something ineffective?

When that practitioner knows that "it" isn't working. However, just because something is discarded now, it doesn't mean that it'll remain that way. As knowledge increases, so does the ability to recognize its viability across the board. It's the..."When I first learned the martial arts, a kick was just a kick and a punch was just a punch..." as told by Bruce Lee. The needed knowledge is an acquired element. Nonetheless, it varies from practitioner to practitioner for one reason or another.

Also, how do we know whether it is the technique or the person that is lacking.

Good point! We'd only know by actually watching and/or interacting with the practitioner while that practitioner is executing said technique(s). They either will know or they won't and that's revealed on the floor...the floor doesn't lie.

[just2kicku]

To me effective is something someone has to realize for themselves.

What I mean by that is this, many techniques are physically effective, but their effectiveness relies on the individuals willingness to use it.

A gun is very effective, but how many people are actually willing to pull the trigger when the time comes?

I apologize if I've restated something already said as I did not read the all the post. 

[zalexia]

you have fully mastered the techniques you're learning.

we are told that you will not master it til u have done 1000 times the technique correctly.

When u get that one moment where it "feels right" you've mastered it and you'll know .

In fighting katas and everything else are not taught as dances, they're techniques that can be applied to every battle.

if u know the bunkai u will be able to apply them to any situation.

There are reasons masters are old. if u want to street fight fine, anything goes, if u wanna fight knowing the reasons for the fighting then apply your own technique on the street.

many pro martial artists take more than one martial art cause each has its bonuses.

Chances of us being allowed just to kick butt are slim to none, but having the knowledge to know you can use this to get out of this situation "priceless".

[MasterPain]

To me effective is something someone has to realize for themselves.

What I mean by that is this, many techniques are physically effective, but their effectiveness relies on the individuals willingness to use it.

A gun is very effective, but how many people are actually willing to pull the trigger when the time comes?

I apologize if I've restated something already said as I did not read the all the post. 

This is an issue at the heart of all training. What are you training for? What are you training to defend against? Will your job require you to be in a combative situation? Can you come to terms with doing serious bodily harm to keep yourself safe? The mental aspect is very important. Normal, well adjusted people have issues with shooting or cutting someone, or for that matter, simply punching someone in their nose.

[bushido_man96]

When I practice Iaido, I do so with focus and intent - and of course martial technique (no point otherwise) however these skills alone would not allow me to defend myself in a pub brawl (unless I had my sword with me lol). But that does not mean Iaido is not a martial art, because it is a specific martial skill that one has chosen to study.

I definitely view Iaido and Western Swordsmanship arts as historical Martial Arts. I do think that the concepts you learn in them can apply to present day, even if you only find a stick in your hands to defend yourself with. There are definitely better, more modern weapons with which to defend oneself with.

No, because XMA has no basis in real martial technique (ancient or present day).

Ah, but it does. XMA techniques are based from many basic techniques and many basic kicks. They are just put in a different context.

[MasterPain]

About the whole XMA thing, I must say that combatively, kicks should usually be simple, but when I practice ridiculous jumping spinning things, my general mobility is better.

Context is everything.

[bushido_man96]

I agree, and keep most of my self-defense geared kicks simple and low. But, it is fun to kick high, and to spin around and stuff.