Define EFFECTIVE!

[MasterPain]

While respect is important, "because I said so" is a dangerous concept. Respect and deference are not the same thing.

Couldn't open the vid where I am (copyright issue), but I don't think anyone was serious about the "because I said so" thing.

Sojobo

Check this out,then. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Milgram_shock_experiments

Some people do tend to place a sensei in a more than human role and follow without question. Too many questions can be annoying and disruptive, and small children should be taught to be obedient, but a teacher should be able to give an answer to valid questions. When I get some punk saying "that won't work", I show the that yes, yes it does. Rather unpleasant. But when asked how or why does that work, I should be able to answer.

[sojobo]

While respect is important, "because I said so" is a dangerous concept. Respect and deference are not the same thing.

Couldn't open the vid where I am (copyright issue), but I don't think anyone was serious about the "because I said so" thing.

Sojobo

Check this out,then. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Milgram_shock_experiments

Some people do tend to place a sensei in a more than human role and follow without question. Too many questions can be annoying and disruptive, and small children should be taught to be obedient, but a teacher should be able to give an answer to valid questions. When I get some punk saying "that won't work", I show the that yes, yes it does. Rather unpleasant. But when asked how or why does that work, I should be able to answer.

With respect, I think it is quite easy to explain why "kansetsu waza" hurts.

However, try explaining to the Punk why he should first train many years of "Nairiki no Gyo" (internal flexibility and strength building exercises used by Koryu Bujutsu like Shindo Yoshin Ryu for example) so as to be able to get himself in a position to be able to efficeintly apply that Kansetsu waza in the first place.

Difficult.

Are you with the Bujinkan?

Sojobo

[KarateGeorge]

Instructors need to be honest with there students, first and foremost. Not knowing is ok. It gives me a chance to find out something knew. However, evading a question does both instructor and student a diservice.

Couldn't agree more. Even with having the upper hand of greater experience, that doesn't mean an instructor always has all the answers. But being honest about it and then finding out the answer is the best way to handle it. If the circumstances allow I also think its great when the instructor is able to involve the student in finding that answer.

[MasterPain]

No we're not Bujinkan, they are more traditional than we are

[sojobo]

If the circumstances allow I also think its great when the instructor is able to involve the student in finding that answer.

The good instructor will always do this imo. It kinda goes without saying.

Sojobo

[sensei8]

Great posts so far...THANKS...please keep them coming!!

[bushido_man96]

Instructors need to be honest with there students, first and foremost. Not knowing is ok. It gives me a chance to find out something knew.

Indeed, and this is where the student needs to be patient and above all trust his sensei.

He/she may not be able to give the student the answer on a plate but "should" have been in that students shoes as it were and therfore know how to guide.

Sojobo

I have no problem with these concepts, as long as there are concepts and preparations in place and taught by the system that make self-defense more attainable in the student's experience with the system. Any system that takes 10 years to make one able to competently defend oneself is not doing what it is supposed to do as a Martial Art.

[Adonis]

Effective to me is all about the results. Results rule period!

[sojobo]

Instructors need to be honest with there students, first and foremost. Not knowing is ok. It gives me a chance to find out something knew.

Indeed, and this is where the student needs to be patient and above all trust his sensei.

He/she may not be able to give the student the answer on a plate but "should" have been in that students shoes as it were and therfore know how to guide.

Sojobo

I have no problem with these concepts, as long as there are concepts and preparations in place and taught by the system that make self-defense more attainable in the student's experience with the system. Any system that takes 10 years to make one able to competently defend oneself is not doing what it is supposed to do as a Martial Art.

You seem obsessed with martial arts only being about self defence.

Self defence is a facet of some martial arts teachings and a by-product of good training in many cases but it is just that a facet. For many it is not the overriding reason to study Martial Arts and doesn’t need to be imo.

But to each their own.

Sojobo

[sensei8]

Ok...for a moment....let's forget about self-defense, which wasn't the reason for the thread in the first place. I used "Effective Self-Defense" to take the place of any technique(s) belonging to any practitioner and/or any style of the martial arts.

**EFFECTIVE period...any technique(s)!!

Imho...

Martial artists can be so quick to judge another styles methodologies and the like without ever having even tried their technique(s) in person. We discuss on the internet with other martial artists and then just as soon as a technique(s) is shared...WHAM...it's judged over the internet as ineffective without given any technique(s) the litmus test.

Every technique(s) that I've discarded, I've literally learned, trained, and experienced it for quite awhile first; I've tasted "it" to see if it was good for me.

**What methods do you use to determine that a technique(s) are ineffective in your opinion?

**What methods are used by the masses, i.e. a group and/or a style, to determine that a technique(s) are ineffective?

That's why I wrote this thread...to see the who, what, where, when, how, and why: Define effective!! Effectiveness is a two way street. Down one street, the effectiveness or the lack thereof for any said technique(s) is what works for YOU. Down another street, the effectiveness or the lack thereof for any said technique(s) is what is a mutual agreed upon by the majority of the MASSES. Even when any said technique(s) are agreed upon by the masses, I still need to prove it for myself before I can be part of that agreed upon mass of martial artists because, imho, the masses, at one time or another, followed the lead of some practitioner who first said to fellow practitioners..."Is THIS effective? Let's find out beyond the shadow of any doubt".

It's my fault that this thread went on a self-defense pro and con discussion because my OP wasn't concise, no, it had the air of ambiguity, and again, that was my fault. Sorry!!