Often posted theory.

[Montana]

This ought to stir up some good discussion!

You'll often see people in this form state that "it's not the system, but rather the sensei/instructor that makes a good dojo.

Well, to that I say BAH!

I'm not going to try to define what a good martial art is, or a good sensei because everybody has their own ideas of what those are. My thoughts won't be the same as yours (although if you were smart, you'd follow me without question! ).

But back to what this thread is about.

You can have a good martial art, say Shorin Ryu, Shotokan (pick one), etc, but the instructor of that particular dojo you are attending might not be all that good of an instructor. Sure, technically he can do all of the things that he was tested for at the belt level he carries, but can he teach it to others?

I know some wonderful martial artists that are very skilled in their respective arts, but they are terrible teachers. They don't have the patience to work with beginners and have difficulty explaining concepts to people and understand why others don't quite "get it" like they did when they first learned it. They are good martial arts teaching a good system, but they are lousy instructors and turn out mediocre students.

In other instances I know some instructors that are fantastic teachers and can teach anything to anyone! However, they are teaching systems that are, well...how do you say it nicely?

SUCK!

Specifically, many of these systems are ones that were "invented" by their instructors 10-20 years ago. Their instructors had a few months of training in this system, a few months of training in that system and maybe got as far as to get a brown or low level black belt in one system, and they decide to combine all of this vast knowledge they've accumulated from numerous systems into one "perfect" and all encompassing new martial art that they just happen to decide they are now a master of.

So they start teaching classes to "newbies" that don't know what they're looking at, promote those people up through the ranks to eventually black belt level. These new black belts start their own dojos and off they go, teaching a martial art that is weak and based on one persons opinion that a little of this system, and a little of that system makes a good martial art, when in reality it's a very weak system.

The perfect situation here, in my opinion of course, is to find a really good, and well respected martial art that you want to try, that has a good sensei that has the patience, knowledge and experience to pass on even the most subtle concepts of their martial art to others.

[MasterPain]

Let me point out that Krav Maga has developed and evolved since being invented in the late 40s. All arts were invented by someone at some point to meet some perceived need by the creator of the art. Most systems taught today are recently created in a historic sense. Kano combined Jujutsu, sumo and western wrestling to create judo just over 100 years ago. 40 years ago, Bruce Lee developed JKD. He meant it to evolve based on his principles, but now you will hear people talk about "traditional" JKD. When faced with Mongols attacking in formation, the samurai had to adapt to survive. i feel that the martial arts should be adaptable, alive, and scientific. I remember being an 11 year old kid seeing Royce Gracie win the first UFC and saying, we need to learn that. And we added what BJJ we could get to our system that was already part Goju Ryu, part JKD, part Judo and such.

So while I mostly disagree, I will say that Rex Kwon Do is just awful.

[Montana]

Krav Maga, BJJ and others are based and developed by people with extensive martial arts backgrounds in proven systems, not "shake-and'bake", a little of this and a little of that backgrounds.

I don't necessarily agree that systems need to "evolve" constantly, because there are only so many ways a person can be attacked by grabs, hands, feet and weapons. What Bruce Lee did was to have a solid background in a viable martial art and study and train intensely other systems and then create a system using solid, proven techniques that he understood.

There's a big difference there.

What I was trying to state in my original post was referring to those that take a few MONTHS of one system, a few of another, etc and never really LEARN a whole system before declaring themselves a master and starting their own systems. Then they promote others and send those out to teach others a very weak system..such as "Rex Kwon Do". I'm sure most of us in this forum know of systems like what we're talking about here. Very weak systems that should die out, if there were any justice in this world.

There's a big difference there.

[MasterPain]

OK. Good point.

[sensei8]

I voted "system"!!

Imho...

Without a system first, there would be no sensei! So, as to not overuse something I've said here many times before, but it needs to be said again, NOT ALL BLACK BELTS CAN TEACH!!

However, a viable and effective system must exist first! Not a mutt system that's been thrown together like Dr. Frankenstien did for his monster; a little bit of this and a little bit of that, it won't exist for long, and it shouldn't. Limited knowledge bears no fruit!

Once a black belt is wrapped around the waist of the sensei want-to-be, the system needs to mentor the yudansha through an Instructor Training course before they can officially instruct anybody. Then and only then will the new Sensei become himself/herself viable and effective under the system's umbrella of endorsements, as well as finally receiving their systems stamp of approval.

That's key! Having a viable and effective system for the Sensei to hang their yudansha upon is paramount .

NO SYSTEM = NO SENSEI...NO SENSEI = NO STUDENTS. In the martial arts; putting the horse before the cart simply means that going about a project in a haphazard fashion, setting up steps out of order and working in a confused manner. It's counter-productive, inefficient and disorganized. It simply doesn't work. The only result may be spinning one's own wheels, and the project goes nowhere.

The system produces the sensei; not the other way around!!

[sojobo]

I voted the person.

Or at least I would if that was on offer.

Sojobo

[Soheir]

I voted both. In the end it's the person though..

If I'd have to choose between sensei and system, I'd deffinetly say the system.

[JiuJitsuNation]

both

[Oni Kudaki]

No system is the best. They all have their own merits and demerits. When it comes to learning, regardless of the style, you can only ever hope to be as good as the person you're learning from. Styles cannot "suck" because they don't do the fighting for you.

[sperki]

This is a "chicken or egg" question. I voted sensei, but clearly without some sort of curriculum in place (ie a system) there wouldn't be anything to teach in the first place. Most people reading this study some established martial art. Although now that I think about it I'm going to be a black belt and instructor of the 5-year old pinwheel arm fighting method. As long as I only fight 5 year olds I'll be a grand champion!