What if my Sensei doesn't know enough kata?

[sensei8]

Here's a link that you might find interesting...

http://www.lessonswiththemaster.com/index_files/skifsyllabus.pdf

"The SKIF system is rooted in tradition but is not bound by the limitations of traditional Shotokan karate training. For example, while the SKIF system includes all of the traditional 26 Shotokan forms ("kata"), it also currently includes four kata from other styles chosen by Master Kanazawa to complement traditional Shotokan karate training. The four additional kata include Master Kanazawa's interpretations of Seipai (from Goju-ryu), Seienchin (from Shito-ryu), Gankaku-Sho (from Shorin-ryu), and Niju Hachi-Ho (from Tomari-te and White Crane style wushu or gung-fu). For all of the kata, the SKIF system includes standardized movements, timing, and practical applications ("bunkai").

The excerpt above from the SKIFUSA.com speaks about the importance of learning Kata that are not part of the norm Shotokan syllabus.

Funakoshi Sensei gained a reputation as a Karate master. He insisted on 'hito-kata sanen' meaning to practice three years on one Karate kata believing that it would take a lifetime to master a handful of kata. Therefore, in the old days students were taught one Kata for three years before going on to the next Kata. After three years the student was just beginning to understand all that the Kata teaches.

[isshinryu5toforever]

Wow, a lot happened while I was asleep haha. I'm glad you're getting a new view on how many kata you absolutely need. For self-defense, it's generally one. Naihanchi (Tekki in Shotokan) is picked by a lot of people.

You said you wanted to learn more and more about what you do (hobbies etc.). You can learn more and more about a single kata. Naihanchi is only about 28 techniques long, but there are hundreds of combinations of techniques for self defense in that one kata. I don't remember the number that Master Young (Isshinryu) came up with, but it was well over 400. That's the depth you can learn by studying a much smaller number of kata.

The reason I wanted to know what rank your sensei was lies simply in the body of knowledge that's been given to him. You have a few years to get to black belt yet haha. He'll have learned quite a bit by then I'm sure.

I was with my instructor when he was a 3rd dan. He is now a 7th dan. He hasn't learned a lot more kata, there are only 8 for us, but he has learned a lot more depth. That's something I've picked up. He has also been able to learn the tonfa, which was something we didn't have originally, and is in the process of learning the eku. That's all taken 20 years. Karate is a slow process most of the time.

As far as TKD in Korea, you're better off learning it in the US anyways. At least there the best coaches still take in regular students. Here, the best coaches just coach. They teach kids classes and coach high school and university students. They don't teach adults, because the interest isn't high enough.

[xravenwingsx]

Thanks to you both!! That is definitely some great information!!! I now understand that the same kata can be broken down multiple ways. i also definitely understand that 'collecting' kata isn't necessarily the wisest choice--rather, finding many ways to make use of a few.

I think the eku is awesome, but I wouldn't be learning that for many many many years. Not a lot of schools teach it anymore--you're lucky! I couldn't imagine spending 3 years on a single kata--but I can see why they would do it that way. Perfection doesn't come easily.

I'll do a bit more research and post any findings here--keep in touch, you guys!

[ps1]

I've met several people that can perform 20 kata. But they don't KNOW even 1. That is, they can do sequence of moves in the air, but don't have any clue why those particular movements were included or what they mean. Funakoshi Sensei practiced the three Tekki Kata for 10 years. But I bet he knew them well. Considering he created the Shotokan system, it's safe to say his karate was strong.

You are young in your journey. Don't get caught up in quantity and concern yourself with quality.

[Kuma]

Thanks to you both!! That is definitely some great information!!! I now understand that the same kata can be broken down multiple ways. i also definitely understand that 'collecting' kata isn't necessarily the wisest choice--rather, finding many ways to make use of a few.

I think the eku is awesome, but I wouldn't be learning that for many many many years. Not a lot of schools teach it anymore--you're lucky! I couldn't imagine spending 3 years on a single kata--but I can see why they would do it that way. Perfection doesn't come easily.

I'll do a bit more research and post any findings here--keep in touch, you guys!

Check out the book "Five Years One Kata" by Bill Burgar. You might find it an interesting read.

[evergrey]

Hey, I gave my honest opinion about your wanting to learn more katas now, given the input that self defense was the most important thing to you. But yeah, I'd say don't worry about learning more kata until you've learned the kata your sensei has to teach you, because yes, by the time you have learned all of those, your sensei will probably have learned more to teach. Just be patient. It isn't about what rank you are at all, it's about the learning process, and how that process works. Muscle memory from kata is very useful. But actual contact in a more realistic fashion than a series of pre-set moves is going to test your ability to defend yourself more.

People aren't attacking you, or trying to say that they have mastered their martial art completely, or that they know everything. They are offering up their opinions, and what they have learned from their experiences.

Look, I'll give you an example myself about trying to run before you can walk.

I noticed that in many of the Kyokushin cull contact knockout videos that I'd seen, the actual knock outs were often a mawashi-geri (roundhouse kick) to the head.

"Aha!" I thought, "I should do that! I'm flexible enough to reach there! One strike, one kill."

So I started doing head kicks during kumite. The problem was that I hadn't really gotten my kihon, my basics, down yet. Furthermore, while I was flexible enough to reach that high, I didn't yet have the control, the balance, or the technique to execute a powerful strike, or a strike that I could control the level of force with. I was throwing my leg up there, but I wasn't able to drive it up there.

I kicked at my sensei's head after class one evening. He reached up and grabbed my heel- I had no control, no snap to a kick that high. Next thing I knew, I was flipping end over end, and I ended up slamming into the floor mat.

My other sensei walked up and said to me, "if you can't kick that high really slowly without losing your balance, you can't kick that high at all. You can only swing your leg up there. It will never be effective until you've taken the time to do it right, and before you can do that, you have to be able to kick right in general."

I tried to kick high slowly, and sure enough, I just wasn't getting my leg up to head height.

It wasn't because I was a 9th kyu, it wasn't because I had a certain opinion, it was because I just wasn't ready yet, and shouldn't have really been worried about learning it yet. That's one of the points people are making- learn those kata, get good at them, develop a strong, solid foundation. Spar. Drill your basics. Get good at the kata he can teach you. Then go from there. Trying more advanced kata at 10th kyu, especially without and instructor to guide you through it, can easily lead to learning it wrong, and that will simply make it harder to unlearn and re-learn properly later on down the line.

[etali]

I study Shukokai, which is based on Shito-Ryu, and we have lots and lots of kata. The class that I train at really only bothers with 14 of them (the ones used for gradings), but there are other competition kata that are taught at other classes, and at special seminars.

I can understand your desire to want to "learn them all". I love kata too. My suggestion would be to learn what you can from your current sensei, and see what happens. The way we learn, we go through the basics of 'just learning the moves' of the Pinan kata and some of the easier senior kata - that takes about a month per kata (although we do pad work, sparring, and other stuff in class too). Then after that phase (where you've learned the basic vocabulary of 'this is what a kick looks like, this is what an inside block looks like'), we go back through and examine the kata and look at bunkai, and start to refine the moves.

Only after that do we learn the more advanced ones.

Unless you train a lot more often than I do, it should probably take a couple of years to get to a decent level of proficiency and understanding in the kata your Sensei already knows - especially if you're also spending time on kihon and kumite.

It also sounds like your Sensei really cares about his students, and once you've got to that stage he'll either have learned some more kata himself, or made arrangements for you to somehow learn the rest of the kata in your style?

I've waffled a bit, but I guess what I'm trying to say is that I wouldn't worry about him only knowing a limited number of kata just yet - learn what you can from him, and then when you're done either his or your circumstances may have changed and you'll be able to find a way to learn the others.

[Lupin1]

Like Isshinryu5toforever said, our entire system only has 8 empty hand kata. At my school we also learn about 5 or 6 kata from other systems, but still-- our system only has 8 empty hand kata and I don't think it's lacking at all because of it. But I understand wanting to learn more kata. I'm impatient to learn all of our kata (I'm more the kind where I'd rather learn them all decently and then work on making them better instead of concentrating on one at a time. But then I've never been the kind who can work really hard on one thing at a time. I'm a bit ADD-- I need to switch things up). I even bought a $50 DVD to teach me the next two kata in my system because I was impatient to wait for my instructor to teach them to me.

[xravenwingsx]

Thanks soooooo much for the information, all!!!! It has definitely broadened my horizons--and made me understand how difficult truly knowing a kata can be. You guys rock!

I think I will do as you all suggest--check out various resources, network, and be patient and learn everything that my sensei teaches me..and learn new ones when he feels that I am ready. Until then, I will also focus on basics and sparring.

[Adonis]

My experience is the more stuff you cram in the less time you can spend to perfect moves. Which is what is needed in self defense is a few good solid techniques instead of a bunch of techniques that they can't exacute on some one resisting or attacking them to save there life.

However nothing wrong with broading your herizons just remember the more time you spend aquiring Kata the less time you get to spend on pefecting them. I believe it was Choki Motubu (sp?) that only new one Kata and drilled that over and over he was one heck of a fighter on Okinawa.

Its common for beggineers in the martiail arts to want to aquite tons of techniques. Trust me on this I didi it to and I really wish I spent my time learning better balance in my stances and how to develop, power, speed, and timing in my techniques instead of going on a Kata, or Technique collection hunt.

Just my opinion