What if my Sensei doesn't know enough kata?

[sensei8]

Me, I say you fight how you train. How alive is your sparring? Do you really hit each other hard? That's probably going to have more of an effect on how well you learn to defend yourself than learning Pinan 38.

I'm very proud of you!! You're doing just fine, and for your experience level, you're head isn't in the clouds, this is rare at your level.

[xravenwingsx]

My initial response to the input provided in the last 12 hours was one of disappointment, anger, and frustration. After that subsided, I took all of your opinions (whether I agree with them or not)--and came up with this reply:

Whether you personally believe kata are worthless are not is your opinion. My instructor is 2nd Dan and tests for his 3rd soon. His instructor is 6th Dan, learned when he was stationed in Okinawa. I believe that my instructor is a great one for me--he knows my strengths and helps me work on my weaknesses. He's already got me sparring against 2nd and 1st Kyu students, etc because he believes that is my skill level in sparring. He understand that personal skill goes beyond rank.

He spends a ton of time on practical application of kata, and even helps me to translate the kata into natural movements in addition to the classic prescribed motions--to make it more fluid and natural for the body. Definitely not one of those people who just tells you to do a kata whether you like it or not. I wouldn't attend a school like that.

I chose shotokan because in my area, it is different. If I wanted TKD, I would have just asked for military orders to S Korea. Every town around me has between 1 and 5 TKD schools, so in my area--that market is oversaturated and not very unique at all in my area.

Only two people answered the MAIN questions that I asked in my original post: the others were concerned with rank, my instructor's rank, and telling me I should find another shotokan school (which doesn't exist in my area).

I want to expand my personal knowledge base. I am glad that some of you are happy with just a handful. I commend you on mastering those few. It is certainly no easy task! It is my personal personality and nature to learn more about everything around me: my job, my hobbies, my environment, family history--etc. That's just who I am and I won't apologize for it.

Thank you for your input. I will take it all into account. I wasn't trying to start some 'you're a n00b' flame war but I guess that's what it turned into. Sorry about that. All I wanted to know is if I should ask him to ask his teacher to teach him more...and if the dvd's would be a waste of money.

Edited December 20, 2010 by xravenwingsx

[Lupin1]

I seem to forget that everyone on the internet is an expert in everything, I should have kept this question to myself.

Some didn't even bother to read that they are the only school in my area of the state, so I don't have an option. It's either this guy or quit. Whether you believe kata benefits a person or not is an issue that has been up for debate for decades now. I highly doubt that one person on the internet has the answer to the great mystery if it's a waste of time or not.

Only one person gave me the direct answer I was looking for, the rest of you looked down on me for being a beginner. I can already see the quality of individuals on this particular website.l

You're welcome for people with dozens of years experience in martial arts taking time to honestly answer your question that you asked because you wanted their opinions.

[xravenwingsx]

I corrected my post. I was frustrated when I first read the replies.

Whether I agree with you all or not isn't up for debate...I only had two simple questions-and rank had nothing to do with it. If I was nidan or something like that...you guys would be saying 'good job' for wanting to expand my knowledge base.

that's the only cause for my frustration. I understand everyone's trying to do me a favor by answering. I thank everyone for their input. I guess some of it I don't agree with. I don't see kata as useless if applied properly. Some may be happy with only 8-10 kata. Because of my personality and nature, I know that won't be enough for me.

I am blessed with an instructor who shares my thirst for knowledge.

[xravenwingsx]

If you're primary reason for learning any martial art is for self-defense, then as crazy as this may sound...don't worry about learning ANY kata. Don't misunderstand me, I'm a huge proponent of Kata and the value of Kata across the board.

Having said that, 11 or 26 or more is vital to the karateka as in reaching the fulfillment of one of the three K's. Don't forget to do the Bunkai of the Kata's you learn because without Bunkai, Kata is wasted movements with no totality. But, I'd go with Kihon first and foremost and then I'd concentrate of Kumite and seeking the perfection of the two. I'd Kumite for the rest of my life against everyone I could, and not just one style of the martial arts.

Then, I'd learn grappling, and in that, I'd seek out a credible BJJ/JJ school because if you don't learn how to handle things on the ground, then you better never defend yourself.

Get as well grounded and well rooted in a core BUT expand your knowledge in anything that you feel will better you across the board.

If your wanting to be promoted in Shotokan, than you're going to have to learn all of the syllabus. But, if rank isn't important to you and you just want to learn self-defense, then speak with your Sensei about this and then go from there. Whether it's finding another dojo and/or another style of the martial arts.

As you've been told by other KF members, I'd like to reiterate the following:

>It's not your role to assume as the student what's "ENOUGH"! Your Sensei is the only one qualified in your dojo to determine this and that.

>Yes there are 26 Kata's in Shotokan, but, your experience/knowledge/rank must match up to the remaining 18 Kata's in the Shotokan syllabus. You're going to need a lot of knowledge to learn Unsu. Even in that, the Kata Wankan is the shortest but it requires a great high level of experience/knowledge/rank to even understand it's effectiveness. Don't put the cart before the horse!! You'll learn one Kata at a time and this means that you'll NOT learn a Kata that you're not ready for.

>Expand your knowledge base SLOWLY, don't rush it! Muscle memory only comes with time and one has to be careful to not learn bad muscle memory, and that can happen when one rushes oneself and doesn't listen to their Sensei across the board.

>You're not naive, you lack knowledge/experience if you think that 11 Kata aren't enough. 1 Kata is enough!! Don't let the trees interfere with your view of the forest! You could do 1 Kata for the rest of your life; tearing it down piece by piece and rebuilding it over and over and over again for the rest of your life and that 1 Kata would be enough. It's not the quantity, but it's the quality of Kata, and yes, even just that 1 Kata instead of 26 or 36 or a billion Kata can make all of the difference.

>Anything by Kanazawa Sensei would benefit any martial artist, especially a karateka. And you're correct in assuming that you can't learn from it as it's intended. Yes, you can learn the steps of the Kata's but without a qualified instructor to correct your mistakes, no matter how small or large the mistake might or might not be, you'll be treading in some unsafe areas. However, imho, I've always believed that DVD's by Kanazawa Sensei and others concerning Kata are more meant for those MAists that already possess knowledge, and in that, these DVD's aren't meant for those who haven't already learned any said Kata. If you've never done Tekki Shodan and you want to learn it from Kanazawa Sensei via a DVD, well, you can learn the steps and bad muscle memories, and that's about it.

Take your time and don't rush your training, everything takes time to mature and while on your MA journey, you'll see that, but only if you take your time to grow and grow and grow and grow...

This is the response I was hoping to find...it was very polite ....thank you! I agree on most of your points--I know it took a lot of time to write, and thank you for that investment of time! :):) I would like to speak more with you and the isshinryu person who originally replied one of these days. you two seem to have your act together.

[todome]

... I would like to commit these movements to my muscle memory and have a wider range of techniques to pick from in an emergency situation. I am not naive enough to believe that only 11 kata have all of the techniques you would ever need in every single emergency situation (mugging, home protection, random assault, etc)....

I'd say you're missing the point of kata. They aren't about memorizing individual techniques, they're about putting the series together in a coherent and purposeful way. The first move of Heien Shodan alone involves subtleties and demands enough understanding to keep a karateka occuppied for years if not forever. The first move is the springboard for the second, the second move offers feedback on the first and so on.

It's the fundamentals the techniques draw out of the practitioner, not the techniques themselves, that will serve the karateka in an emergency situation. Anybody can memorize sequences. It takes a humble and open mind to learn from them what they have to teach.

As long as your sensei's teachings are sound my advice is not to worry about the other 15 kata until the 11 he's prepared to teach you stop opening avenues to improvement.

[xravenwingsx]

Todome...I see what you're saying, and it makes a lot of sense. I guess now I see to look at each kata in it's entirety...not movement by movement. I do believe that some of the movements are useless in today's violent society..and some of them can be extracted and made practical by themselves or in series with another one or two or three, etc. I especially like your point about one being a springboard for another. Great point!

Edited December 20, 2010 by xravenwingsx

[xravenwingsx]

I am fortunate enough to have a lot of people to spar with, and some who are better at classical movements and kata. A lot with technical knowledge to learn from, and some who are great at sparring. Wide range of talent. I can't wait to enter the competition circuit just for a chance at kumite with someone new, with a different style. I know sparring the same people every week would give me a rather limited experience. I'm sure that one day I will want to experience shotokan more as an artform--and rightfully so. the low stances and swift direct movements are beautiful and powerful when executed by the masters. right now as a family man...my biggest concern is getting the basics down and some sparring experience for home defense (i don't want a gun in my house). I do enjoy karate as a workout program too...i usually leave extremely sweaty and quite exhausted. Plus, it gives my wife and I something to do together.

[Nevinyrral]

I'd say wait till you lear those 11 katas, it should take you some time to learn them, and mayby after this time your instructor will rearn new katas and teach them to you. I know about 6 katas, and I tell you, I still need much time to make them look as they should, so dont wory about the quantity.

And I would like to know what are those 11 kata's we are talking about?

And what rank are you?( I dont need it for discussion, I'm just curious:))

[xravenwingsx]

I'd say wait till you lear those 11 katas, it should take you some time to learn them, and mayby after this time your instructor will rearn new katas and teach them to you. I know about 6 katas, and I tell you, I still need much time to make them look as they should, so dont wory about the quantity.

And I would like to know what are those 11 kata's we are talking about?

And what rank are you?( I dont need it for discussion, I'm just curious:))

thank you! After I calmed down a little this morning and seeing that people weren't attacking my rank, I decided that this is what I am going to do. Learn what he learns until he has decided that I can move on. by the time I get to his level, he will have learned a lot more to teach me.

Wife and I are 10th kyu (we test every 6 months), and test for 9th kyu January 11. We're nervous and excited...but he's already said that with as much as we practice, we should have it nailed. In our school, 9th kyu is white belt with black stripe on the end of belt. yellow isn't til 8th kyu in our school. a lot different system than most. we only use white, yellow, green, brown, black. no in-between colors and testing opportunities don't come often. it's his way of teaching everyone patience. something most people don't have anymore. everyone wants everything and they want it now....ya know?