What if my Sensei doesn't know enough kata?

[xravenwingsx]

My sensei told me when I signed up under him that he only knows around 11 kata. Only 8 are required at our dojo for shodan.

What if I don't think 8 is enough? What if I don't think 11 is enough? How can I learn all of the Shotokan kata (I have heard there are 26-28 kata...the information varies from website to website)?

We're a small but very talented and award-winning dojo in the kata categories at our regional competitions, so I know the instructor has some potential. There are also weapons I would like to learn that he does not know. Unfortunately, he is the only Shotokan sensei in my area.

My thirst for knowledge is not to win competitions. In fact, other than sparring experience, I don't have a desire to ever attend one. I joined Shotokan for the self-defense potential.

My curiosity is of a more practical nature: to expand my knowledge base. I would like to commit these movements to my muscle memory and have a wider range of techniques to pick from in an emergency situation. I am not naive enough to believe that only 11 kata have all of the techniques you would ever need in every single emergency situation (mugging, home protection, random assault, etc).

I was thinking of buying some of Kanazawa Sensei's videos. Is this a good idea? I would see that the problem with this is that there is nobody around to evaluate you and correct your movements as necessary.

Thanks for your input, all!

[isshinryu5toforever]

If the only thing you're worried about is defending yourself, learn to box. Period. Complicated is horrible when it comes to self defense. You aren't going to counter an attack with a perfect side block reverse punch in pristine zenkutsu dachi, kiai loudly, and watch the attacker fall to the ground as you stand there in proud rigidity. Boxing has 4 basic punches, the jab, the hook, the straight, and the uppercut, and that is MORE than enough for you to defend yourself with.

I take away from your post that you are a beginner. Here are a few questions:

Why is 8 not enough? Isshin-ryu and Uechi-ryu both have 8 kata. They have practitioners that are just fine defending themselves.

What qualifies you to decide how many katas you need to learn? Your instructor is an instructor for a reason.

Here's the biggest question, why are you training with an instructor that will never give you what you want? You are a client, so naturally you should seek out what you're looking for. He provides a service. It isn't his job to tailor his services specifically to you.

In fact, I'll go with the tailor reference here. You don't go to a tailor and tell him exactly what you want. A lot of people think this is how it works, but it isn't. You go to a tailor, and he shows you what his suits look like. They might be longer than normal, shorter than normal, have narrower shoulders, whatever. A great tailor, think Saville Row, will make a suit that fits you, but it is the suit he WANTS to make you. It will have his style, but it will fit you. So, you have to choose a tailor that makes suits in the style you like.

Marital arts are exactly the same. Every instructor has something to offer. He will teach you in a way that fits your learning style, but he will not change the style for you. If you go to a Shotokan dojo that practices 8 kata, you will learn 8 kata over time. If you go to an ITF dojang, you will learn their multiple forms over time. I believe there are 24. You have to be an informed customer. You also have to have an open mind and trust the person teaching you. If you aren't willing to do that, then why have a teacher?

[xravenwingsx]

I certainly see your point, and it was eloquently executed. I am a beginner, but my experience level shouldn't be an issue at all.

I do understand however, that in a few years time when I get to where he is now, he will have learned a lot more from his teacher too. While I am always seeking to expand, so is he. Perhaps that's why I chose him--he did say that if there's anything I wanted to learn, to give him time to learn it first.

I did mention in the original post that he is the only Shotokan person in my area (and he's still an hour away from home), so I am not allowed the luxury of shopping around. Each style has its weaknesses and benefits, but that is the one I chose. There are 5 TKD schools in the next town over, but that's not what I decided on learning.

I thank you for your post, it did make an excellent point and was well-written and completely non-offensive. Thank you for your input, I shall keep that in mind!

[isshinryu5toforever]

I guess that was the point. Why Shotokan? I understand if it's the only thing you have in your area. You said that there's also TKD. Is there anything else? If not, then yes, you are very very limited, and you have to make the best of it.

If I may ask, what is your instructor's rank? It has nothing to do with his ability to teach, well, it can, but it has more to do with his knowledge base. The more advanced he is, the more he'll know to a point.

[Sheephead]

My sensei told me when I signed up under him that he only knows around 11 kata. Only 8 are required at our dojo for shodan.

What if I don't think 8 is enough? What if I don't think 11 is enough? How can I learn all of the Shotokan kata (I have heard there are 26-28 kata...the information varies from website to website)?

We're a small but very talented and award-winning dojo in the kata categories at our regional competitions, so I know the instructor has some potential. There are also weapons I would like to learn that he does not know. Unfortunately, he is the only Shotokan sensei in my area.

My thirst for knowledge is not to win competitions. In fact, other than sparring experience, I don't have a desire to ever attend one. I joined Shotokan for the self-defense potential.

My curiosity is of a more practical nature: to expand my knowledge base. I would like to commit these movements to my muscle memory and have a wider range of techniques to pick from in an emergency situation. I am not naive enough to believe that only 11 kata have all of the techniques you would ever need in every single emergency situation (mugging, home protection, random assault, etc).

I was thinking of buying some of Kanazawa Sensei's videos. Is this a good idea? I would see that the problem with this is that there is nobody around to evaluate you and correct your movements as necessary.

Thanks for your input, all!

No offense but even 1 or 2 kata should be enough! not to mention 10 or 20 or 30 or whatever. Of course there are requirements and such but speaking from a self defense point of view.... This hoarding of kata is just ridiculous.

[evergrey]

Me, I say you fight how you train. How alive is your sparring? Do you really hit each other hard? That's probably going to have more of an effect on how well you learn to defend yourself than learning Pinan 38.

[honoluludesktop]

Sounds like you don't respect your teacher. Nothing wrong with that, but shouldn't you find another?

[DWx]

The number of kata you learn is not not going to improve your ability to defend yourself (if that's what you want from your training). If your instructor teaches you well and applies what you've learnt in kata to other facets of your training, there's no need for more. Its the quality not the quantity that matters. Besides, years down the line, by the time you've learnt and spent time on the 8, other opportunities to learn more katas may arise such as seminars or a chance to train with your teacher's teacher.

[ninjanurse]

I'm still chewing on kata I learned years ago and still learning from them daily. It is always best to have an empty cup when starting out....and after 30+ years of training!

[sensei8]

If you're primary reason for learning any martial art is for self-defense, then as crazy as this may sound...don't worry about learning ANY kata. Don't misunderstand me, I'm a huge proponent of Kata and the value of Kata across the board.

Having said that, 11 or 26 or more is vital to the karateka as in reaching the fulfillment of one of the three K's. Don't forget to do the Bunkai of the Kata's you learn because without Bunkai, Kata is wasted movements with no totality. But, I'd go with Kihon first and foremost and then I'd concentrate of Kumite and seeking the perfection of the two. I'd Kumite for the rest of my life against everyone I could, and not just one style of the martial arts.

Then, I'd learn grappling, and in that, I'd seek out a credible BJJ/JJ school because if you don't learn how to handle things on the ground, then you better never defend yourself.

Get as well grounded and well rooted in a core BUT expand your knowledge in anything that you feel will better you across the board.

If your wanting to be promoted in Shotokan, than you're going to have to learn all of the syllabus. But, if rank isn't important to you and you just want to learn self-defense, then speak with your Sensei about this and then go from there. Whether it's finding another dojo and/or another style of the martial arts.

As you've been told by other KF members, I'd like to reiterate the following:

>It's not your role to assume as the student what's "ENOUGH"! Your Sensei is the only one qualified in your dojo to determine this and that.

>Yes there are 26 Kata's in Shotokan, but, your experience/knowledge/rank must match up to the remaining 18 Kata's in the Shotokan syllabus. You're going to need a lot of knowledge to learn Unsu. Even in that, the Kata Wankan is the shortest but it requires a great high level of experience/knowledge/rank to even understand it's effectiveness. Don't put the cart before the horse!! You'll learn one Kata at a time and this means that you'll NOT learn a Kata that you're not ready for.

>Expand your knowledge base SLOWLY, don't rush it! Muscle memory only comes with time and one has to be careful to not learn bad muscle memory, and that can happen when one rushes oneself and doesn't listen to their Sensei across the board.

>You're not naive, you lack knowledge/experience if you think that 11 Kata aren't enough. 1 Kata is enough!! Don't let the trees interfere with your view of the forest! You could do 1 Kata for the rest of your life; tearing it down piece by piece and rebuilding it over and over and over again for the rest of your life and that 1 Kata would be enough. It's not the quantity, but it's the quality of Kata, and yes, even just that 1 Kata instead of 26 or 36 or a billion Kata can make all of the difference.

>Anything by Kanazawa Sensei would benefit any martial artist, especially a karateka. And you're correct in assuming that you can't learn from it as it's intended. Yes, you can learn the steps of the Kata's but without a qualified instructor to correct your mistakes, no matter how small or large the mistake might or might not be, you'll be treading in some unsafe areas. However, imho, I've always believed that DVD's by Kanazawa Sensei and others concerning Kata are more meant for those MAists that already possess knowledge, and in that, these DVD's aren't meant for those who haven't already learned any said Kata. If you've never done Tekki Shodan and you want to learn it from Kanazawa Sensei via a DVD, well, you can learn the steps and bad muscle memories, and that's about it.

Take your time and don't rush your training, everything takes time to mature and while on your MA journey, you'll see that, but only if you take your time to grow and grow and grow and grow...

Edited December 20, 2010 by sensei8