Every day defense

[JusticeZero]

Beyond that - there is no such thing as a car ACCIDENT. If there was a factory that had no guards on a big set of saw blades, and an employee had their hands cut off, that might be an accident. If the factory continued to not put guards on the blades or to enforce any safety procedures around the blade and someone else's hand was cut off, that would be much more grey. If the body count built much higher, it would be careless negligence, not an accident. Cars have killed more people than all the wars since they were invented, INCLUDING BOTH WORLD WARS, combined. They aren't safe, and any sort of injury or death caused by them is not an 'accident'. Accident is such a harmless word.. sort've like "Oh, we were sparring, without gloves or safety equipment, and not really paying attention to what we were doing, and I was too busy watching the cute brown belt practice high kicks and I punched my training partner in the eye hard enough to injure him. But oh, it was an ACCIDENT, nobody can be held at fault for an ACCIDENT, those things just kind've HAPPEN! That's just how things are!"

[wolverine uskf]

Ok, so i should turn my 30 minute drive into a 2 hour bike ride in the snow. Not everyone lives in the urban sprall, but everyone has bills to pay. If you want to ban something try banning cell phones, they have doubled the amount of car accidents since they were created, and people lived for a long time without them just fine. Not to mention you can buy american fuel, instead of terrorist fuel, if you are smart enough to check it out.

[JusticeZero]

I'm not a fan of cell phones, either. Been going after those pretty consistantly.

And actually, I HAVE checked it out. The oil market is too indirect, and there is NO WAY to avoid having significant amounts of oil in the mix from places like the persian gulf. Boycotting a company that imports from a place you don't like just means that those places will sell the oil to someone else, who will sell the oil to you.

http://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/index.cfm?page=gasoline_where

Gasoline and other products are sent through shared pipelines in “batches.” Since these batches are not physically separated in the pipeline, some mixing or “commingling” of products occurs.

While gasoline is sold at about 162,000 retail outlets across the Nation, about one-third of these stations are "unbranded" dealers that may sell gasoline of any brand. The remainder of the outlets are "branded" stations, but may not necessarily be selling gasoline produced at that company’s refineries. This mixing of brands occurs because gasoline from different refineries is often combined for shipment by pipeline, and companies owning service stations in the same area may be purchasing gasoline at the same bulk terminal.

Even if we knew which company’s refinery produced the gasoline, the source of the crude oil used at that refinery may vary on a day-to-day basis. Most refiners use a mix of crude oils from various domestic and foreign sources. The mix of crude oils can change based on the relative cost and availability of crude oil from different sources.

It has in fact been noted that the oil market is tight enough that individual refineries and the like can, if they so wish, set the global price of oil through pure supply and demand economics; the supply is tight enough that one facility refusing to sell at a given price will cause prices to skyrocket, generally to whatever level they demand.

Next: You were not forced to have a house far away from town. Nobody put a gun to your head and told you 'You are going to live out in the remote suburbs where everything is far away.' Nobody is holding that gun to your head now.

Furthermore, providing transit to those faraway points is not a herculean task. It would cost only a tiny fraction of what we pay to put free streets everywhere to have buses, streetcars, trains, and the like roaming as far out as you need. For reasons beyond my fathoming though, people think it's perfectly OK to drop a few hundred million dollars of property and income taxes on a small section of roadway to make people able to shave 30 seconds off of their drive, but if you propose spending one percent of that to pay for bus drivers who would cut traffic just as effectively, people come out of the woodwork to complain about the wasteful spending.

[MasterPain]

You both have some valid arguments. But please consider that my county has a population of 10 thousand. I believe its roughly the same size as Chicago. Any bus here would likely have 2 people riding at any given time.Our poulation would not support public transport. I'm sure there are many places like this as agriculture takes up a lot of ground. Rather than blame cars, we should place blame on not following traffic law. Even after all precautions accidents do still happen. For that matter, consider Christopher Reeve, no car involved there.

[wolverine uskf]

How did this thread end up this way?

You know what, i was going to explain my situation, but it's not worth the frustration, so all i'm going to say is.

MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!

OR WHAT EVER YOUR HOLIDAY IS.

[BDPulver]

wow, um......just gonna let it slide also not worth the arguement and derailing of the thread. but with wolverine uskf....Happy Holidays !!!!

[JiuJitsuNation]

I find all of this interesting and I'm actually sold emotionally on several points made. However my suv gets 12 miles to the gallon, I highly enjoy driving it (without a seatbelt) and the world is going to continue on it's course and as long as people are involved.... good or bad is simply YOUR perception.

P.S. I wear my seatbelt on the interstate or two lane highways.

[ps1]

Nice thread

[GeoGiant]

I like threads like this because everyone presents well thought out points of debate and the threads never turn into nasty arguments. I get a chance to understand a different perspective.

Kudos to Patrick for creating a forum like this and providing the oversight that doesn't permit trolling.

[JusticeZero]

Really, it's not a 'good and evil' thing.. I study transportation, so I know the costs and compromises involved. They are pretty much 'unsafe at any speed', much easier to get rid of for most people who don't live on a farm than people imagine, and involve a lot of hidden issues that I personally feel are incompatible with my values. Plus, the financial costs are easy for many people to overlook, and they are higher than I want to factor into my family's budget without good reason.

Still, the safety factor is a major concern to me. I have family who has killed people on the road.

Driving a car using seat belts and obeying the laws seems to me to be similar to walking through a creepy abandoned lot on your way to work - but it's okay because you have light, situational awareness, and a cell phone.. Yes, you have taken good and relevant precautions to minimize the risk, but it would be better yet to change your routine to remove the need to walk through the dangerous place in the first place.