Unshu, kata and bunkai

[BlackSilver]

Hello,

Well as you ask - I am going to play devil's advocate here - as this sort of thing just doesn't float my boat.

Whilst it is very clear that you and your colleagues have invested a great deal of time and energy in this - and you should be commended for that - tbh, all I see when I watch WKF style kata comps is pure theatre (or more accurately Chinese State Circus) - particularly when bunkai is brought into the equation

It has very little martial value - imo

But that’s just me - I am an old git who studies even older ma.

Sojobo.

That's a totally fair point of view.

I train in a karate dojo, with 150 people enrolled. There aren't only young boys and girls who participate to competitions. There are lots of "adults" who pratise for the practice's sake. Hence I must say that my sensei is probably more focused on the "traditional" side of karate, which is taught to those adults who i think need the much more stimulation than young competitors. Nonetheless we have a quite big group of younger athletes who get good ranking in competitions. I "know" what's the difference between traditional and sports karate, and im aware that if i wanna partecipate to competitions i must respect some kind of rules and ways of doing.

I think that we are talking about two separate worlds: the only things to appreciate here are the physical qualities, and the efforts done to practise together.

Thanks anyway for your comment.

(I'm sorry if my English is not correct )

[sojobo]

I think that we are talking about two separate worlds: the only things to appreciate here are the physical qualities, and the efforts done to practise together.

Thanks anyway for your comment.

Maybe not two separate worlds - different stages maybe?

There is no doubt in my mind about the physical qualities and effort that you have put into this. It is often difficult to "quantify" ma and as a result, competition has become an easy way to compare/measure ones success - I understand that, and it is an important part of Karate imo.

That said, I think there is a danger that the time you spend "polishing your act" (and making the audience go Ohhhh!!!) is time distracted from learning how to make your “Koshi Nage” actually work as opposed to it theoretically working.

But as I say, all part of the broader spectrum of things. You are shaped by what you do.

Sojobo

[BlackSilver]

Maybe not two separate worlds - different stages maybe?

There is no doubt in my mind about the physical qualities and effort that you have put into this. It is often difficult to "quantify" ma and as a result, competition has become an easy way to compare/measure ones success - I understand that, and it is an important part of Karate imo.

That said, I think there is a danger that the time you spend "polishing your act" (and making the audience go Ohhhh!!!) is time distracted from learning how to make your “Koshi Nage” actually work as opposed to it theoretically working.

But as I say, all part of the broader spectrum of things. You are shaped by what you do.

Sojobo

just to make things clear: i wasn't talking about MY physical qualities, I meant that generally speaking, in comps you appreciate that. It seemed a little bit preposterous, i guess.

Anyway as i said i understand what you mean and I know you're right. But sometimes you have to choose, right?

[sojobo]

Anyway as i said i understand what you mean and I know you're right. But sometimes you have to choose, right?

Absolutely - and you have to choose what is right for you - at where you are in your stage of training/learning. I would be a hypocrite if I said competition was no good - as I spent best part of the 80's and 90's doing it.

It is but a facade though - and I think (from reading your post) you realise this - and as long as you don't lose sight of that and you have some good instructors that can really take you to the next stage - then you are in safe hands.

But... WKF bunkai is not safe hands imo... but again that’s me and being old

Sojobo

[BlackSilver]

I think that the point is this: I am good in competing, hence i like to confront myself with high level athletes. So i partecipate in WKF competitions.

I have fun doing it, i enjoy myself and i feel good training and performing with my teammates. What more should i ask? It's not to be in safe hands or not, it's just what level you wanna reach i guess

[sojobo]

What more should i ask? ....

Is what you are doing karate?

Rhetorical question.

Sojobo

[BlackSilver]

Is what you are doing karate?

Rhetorical question.

Sojobo

you should forgive me if i say that this is the question used by whom does not know what more to say. Is what YOU are doing karate? Who is doing KARATE?

Kyokushin? Traditional fighting? Full contact? Okinawan?

I haven't heard anybody who could answer that question yet.

And anyway, i think we were talking about sports karate, that's it, once you get to know the "field", things are easier i guess. And moreover, you cannot know whether apart fromthe comps training, I'm doing "traditional" REAL karate. So what's the point in your question?

I didn't come here to say that the karate i do is right and the others are wrong. I suppose that's one of the most common, ingenuous errors.

[sojobo]

Is what you are doing karate?

Rhetorical question.

Sojobo

you should forgive me if i say that this is the question used by whom does not know what more to say. Is what YOU are doing karate? Who is doing KARATE?

Kyokushin? Traditional fighting? Full contact? Okinawan?

I haven't heard anybody who could answer that question yet.

And anyway, i think we were talking about sports karate, that's it, once you get to know the "field", things are easier i guess. And moreover, you cannot know whether apart fromthe comps training, I'm doing "traditional" REAL karate. So what's the point in your question?

I didn't come here to say that the karate i do is right and the others are wrong. I suppose that's one of the most common, ingenuous errors.

With the greatest of respect Blacksilver, you posted your vid then invited comments on it. You got mine.

Sojobo

[BlackSilver]

With the greatest of respect Blacksilver, you posted your vid then invited comments on it. You got mine.

Sojobo

yeah but asking " is what you do KARATE?" is not useful to anyone.

You want me to say that Im not doing KARATE, because your idea of karate differs from the sports karate. So what? What is useful with your question?

You complained about my koshi nage, I already knew it was not okay, now I know that it is something that people notice, then I will work on it. That is useful. Critics are useful. Sudden virtual enlightments on what REAL KARATE is, are not.

[sojobo]

With the greatest of respect Blacksilver, you posted your vid then invited comments on it. You got mine.

Sojobo

yeah but asking " is what you do KARATE?" is not useful to anyone.

You want me to say that Im not doing KARATE, because your idea of karate differs from the sports karate. So what? What is useful with your question?

You complained about my koshi nage, I already knew it was not okay, now I know that it is something that people notice, then I will work on it. That is useful. Critics are useful. Sudden virtual enlightments on what REAL KARATE is, are not.

Sorry if my thoughts offend you.

I think moving forward I best keep them to myself.

All the very best.

Sojobo