Last moves of Bassai

[Montana]

Without knowing the bunkai (IMO) of a kata, then movements of kata are meaningless. You might as well be dancing.

You need to visualize what your opponent is doing that causes you to do a certain technique in the kata as you do the kata. It brings the movement alive and gives it meaning. Without knowing the bunkai and what it is that you're doing and defending against, then what's the point of doing a kata?

[sojobo]

Hello,

It is always difficult to explain to practitioners of other styles that Wado kata doesn’t have Bunkai.

Bunkai is a process of dissection, to further develop potential the techniques within the kata, however the wado operating model is different to that of it Okinawan predecessor. Instead of Bunkai we use the word “Kaisetsu” which more closely means “commentary” rather than dissection. It refers to the utilisation of the technique exactly as it is performed in the Kata (without deviation). So techniques are performed as if against an opponent, however they are not modified in any way.

Remember of course that Wado owes most of its genetic makeup to Japanese Koryu Jujutsu (not Okinawan te). The difference being that Wado has numerous paired Kata and Oyo - in which the body mechanics that are subsumed as part of the solo kata training are born out and further extrapolated upon.

Its pedagogy is different to that of Okinawan karate – not better or worse just different.

Sojobo

[Wastelander]

My theories: somebody somewhere along the line thought it looked cooler slow, decided to make it symbolic, or they are used for slowly applying an armlock in the bunkai, although I don't know why you would do that slowly if you're being attacked.

Bassai (we call them Passai) kata's last moves are not "cooler" because they're done slow, they have bunkai, just like every other move in a kata.

The final movements in the Bassai/Passai kata are techniques done in the dark where you can't see your opponent, and are "feeling" with your feet, then reaching out with one hand and grasping your opponents wrist and applying either an arm bar, or attacking the nerves in the neck with your other hand.

No moves are done in "traditional" kata because they're cool. They all have a purpose and an application.

I certainly did not mean to offend--I don't think any traditional kata should be changed to "look cool", I was simply stating a theory as to why those techniques were done slowly. What you explain as techniques done in the dark does make some sense, and go along with my theory of applying an arm lock while explaining why you would apply it slowly. Thank you for explaining that

[sojobo]

Thanks all for your responses, we do a lot of bunkai and application work with kata and agree that they are a 'practical textbook' of sorts but we could not understand why, when the rest of the kata is done quickly, these moves were done slowly and quite precisely (changing of angles, looking in the opposite direction etc).

I like the theory that it could be either done in the dark, a slow arm lock etc and it could also be to show the technique and practice it slowly to perfect the action.

I am training with my senior sensei on Thursday and will discuss and come back to the thread.

Thanks again.

What Wado group do you train with?

Sojobo

[Batoru]

Sojobo,

Firstly, I understand what you mean regarding Bunkai, we only do look at the different applications that could be applied to techniques within the constraints of the kata / specific movement. Miss quotation on my part, apologies.

I train with JNK (Jiyou Na Kokoro Karate Ryu) in the Midlands under the instruction of Sensei Rob Fernyhough and we are privileged to have Sensei Phil Martin as our Chief Instructor who has developed our understanding of Wado and Karate in general.

Where do you train / teach yourself?

[sojobo]

I understand what you mean regarding Bunkai, we only do look at the different applications that could be applied to techniques within the constraints of the kata / specific movement. Miss quotation on my part, apologies.

Ah no problem Batoru - I think the word "Bunkai" is thrown around far too liberally these days (in Wado circles anyway) - when its true meaning is quite misunderstood by many imo.

On the Bunkai Vs Kaisetsu thing, a good Wado friend of mine has a saying that I think sums it up nicely:

“Bunkai is like buying a new bike, then taking it apart to see how it works. In Wado we use Kaisetsu as we would rather just get on the bike and ride it.”

Here is a link to his website where he goes on to expand upon this and also explains an important fact that is often overlooked by many Wadoka concerning the kanji used to describe "Kata" in Wado.

http://www.ishikawa-karate.com/kata-kaisetsu.htm

I train with JNK (Jiyou Na Kokoro Karate Ryu) in the Midlands under the instruction of Sensei Rob Fernyhough and we are privileged to have Sensei Phil Martin as our Chief Instructor who has developed our understanding of Wado and Karate in general.

Ah cool, an off shoot of Peter Suzuki's group I believe - I hear he (Peter Suzuki) is back in action in a small way - I know his son Yoshi is heavily into promoting his new club - I've not met him but he seems like a nice guy.

Me myself, Wado wise, I am with the England Wado-kai / JKF Wado-kai.

I also train in Koryu Bujutsu under the auspices of the Seirenkan Sōsuishi-ryū U.K. Keikokai.

For the record - I have trained Bassai kata with many notable sensei including the likes of Ohgami sensei - I have never heard him (or any other) refer to applying an arm lock in the dark when it comes to part of the Kata - that’s not saying it isn't - I've just never heard that (from a Wado sensei anyway).

Sojobo

[Batoru]

I have never heard of it being an arm bar in the dark or anything along those lines either having trained with notable sensei also but was just looking for potential explanations to discuss tomorrow as none of us had ever had an explanation. All of the senior students were tasked with looking at potential kaisetsu and we are going through it so I will report on Friday.

Thanks for the link, have not had time to look through yet (lunchtime at work) but will this evening.

Yoshi and Peter Suzuki are affiliated with the DOK group, Dave Honey runs the Droitwich branch, Yoshi runs another in the Midlands somewhere (not sure where but I will find out) and they have another club also. We are not part of the group but follow the same syllabus etc.

I have not met wither Peter and Yoshi myself but my sensei has and sensei Martin speaks very highly of both of them.

[sojobo]

I have never heard of it being an arm bar in the dark or anything along those lines either having trained with notable sensei also but was just looking for potential explanations to discuss tomorrow as none of us had ever had an explanation. All of the senior students were tasked with looking at potential kaisetsu and we are going through it so I will report on Friday.

My thoughts are more along the lines of Irimi combined with the way the shuto arm / shoulders travels in an opposite direction to the hips. Double moment as Ohgami sensei would say.

Think Kihon Gumite Happonme.

Sojobo

[Batoru]

Thanks, we have been doing work with irimi and kuzushi recently and this may be what the moves are there to demonstrate and practice. I will give that some time this evening.

Thanks again

Batoru

[sensei8]

I was taught/I teach those last two shutos as attacks. However, I've practiced and have seen varies Bunkai over the many years. I've never heard of the blind/in the dark theory, but, that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.