Last moves of Bassai

[Batoru]

Hi all,

I am a Wado practitioner and, while practicing Bassai yesterday, the question was asked why the last shuto moves were performed slowly.

We could not come up with a credable reason and I was hoping for input from the forum as to why this might be.

Thanks

[ps1]

In Shotokan, they are not performed slowly.

[Wastelander]

Hi all,

I am a Wado practitioner and, while practicing Bassai yesterday, the question was asked why the last shuto moves were performed slowly.

We could not come up with a credable reason and I was hoping for input from the forum as to why this might be.

Thanks

My theories: somebody somewhere along the line thought it looked cooler slow, decided to make it symbolic, or they are used for slowly applying an armlock in the bunkai, although I don't know why you would do that slowly if you're being attacked.

[tallgeese]

I have a coach who is fond of saying if you can't do it slow you won't be able to do it fast. Could be a learning tool, nothing more.

Remeber too, kata's are not simulated fights. They are training modalities used to confer knowledge. Sometimes, they relate better to a physical text book than drill work.

It's not mimicing a fight, it's trying to show you something. Granted, not many modern kata (if any) are designed this way, but the older ones are.

Getting that will make kata make a lot more sense.

[sojobo]

I have a coach who is fond of saying if you can't do it slow you won't be able to do it fast. Could be a learning tool, nothing more.

Remeber too, kata's are not simulated fights. They are training modalities used to confer knowledge. Sometimes, they relate better to a physical text book than drill work.

It's not mimicing a fight, it's trying to show you something. Granted, not many modern kata (if any) are designed this way, but the older ones are.

Getting that will make kata make a lot more sense.

I am impressed tallgeese, there are a lot of Wadoka out there that "don't get it" - as well as you seem to.

Batoru - It is worth remembering that the "working bits" of Wado don't come from Okinawan karate - they come from Koryu jujutsu (namely Shindo Yoshin Ryu). SYR have literally hundreds of paired kata, but they also have solo kata / exercises (called Nairiki no gyo I believe) that are designed to manifest internal core strength through good movement, balance and body mechanics etc. Through training these solo kata the outputs can be applied to paired Kata to make them work.

It’s my guess (and only a guess) that Otsuka used this approach - particularly with Kata like Naihanchi and seishan etc. Remember also that from a Wado perspective, Bassai is considered an "additional" kata and therefore only an exercise in variation of the techniques found in the official 9 Kata.

Sojobo

[Montana]

My theories: somebody somewhere along the line thought it looked cooler slow, decided to make it symbolic, or they are used for slowly applying an armlock in the bunkai, although I don't know why you would do that slowly if you're being attacked.

Bassai (we call them Passai) kata's last moves are not "cooler" because they're done slow, they have bunkai, just like every other move in a kata.

The final movements in the Bassai/Passai kata are techniques done in the dark where you can't see your opponent, and are "feeling" with your feet, then reaching out with one hand and grasping your opponents wrist and applying either an arm bar, or attacking the nerves in the neck with your other hand.

No moves are done in "traditional" kata because they're cool. They all have a purpose and an application.

[Montana]

Remeber too, kata's are not simulated fights. They are training modalities used to confer knowledge. Sometimes, they relate better to a physical text book than drill work.

It's not mimicing a fight, it's trying to show you something. Granted, not many modern kata (if any) are designed this way, but the older ones are.

Getting that will make kata make a lot more sense.

Actually, traditional kata DO mimic fights. The movements are based upon the experiences of the origionators of the kata on techniques that they, themselves, used in a real situation. They found the techniques effective and incorporated them into kata to pass the techniques on to others.

[/u]

[brickshooter]

Hi all,

I am a Wado practitioner and, while practicing Bassai yesterday, the question was asked why the last shuto moves were performed slowly.

We could not come up with a credable reason and I was hoping for input from the forum as to why this might be.

Thanks

I'm guessing that if it was slowly done, then Wado wanted it to be a more complicated technique than a mere strike. Armbar? Some exotic strangulation?

[Batoru]

Thanks all for your responses, we do a lot of bunkai and application work with kata and agree that they are a 'practical textbook' of sorts but we could not understand why, when the rest of the kata is done quickly, these moves were done slowly and quite precisely (changing of angles, looking in the opposite direction etc).

I like the theory that it could be either done in the dark, a slow arm lock etc and it could also be to show the technique and practice it slowly to perfect the action.

I am training with my senior sensei on Thursday and will discuss and come back to the thread.

Thanks again.

[sojobo]

Thanks all for your responses, we do a lot of bunkai and application work with kata and agree that they are a 'practical textbook' of sorts but we could not understand why, when the rest of the kata is done quickly, these moves were done slowly and quite precisely (changing of angles, looking in the opposite direction etc).

I like the theory that it could be either done in the dark, a slow arm lock etc and it could also be to show the technique and practice it slowly to perfect the action.

I am training with my senior sensei on Thursday and will discuss and come back to the thread.

Thanks again.

Bunkai is an Okinawan thing - Wado Kata does not have Bunkai. It is practiced the way it is (in Wado) primarily for Kinesthetic learning purposes.

Sojobo