Batoru Posted November 18, 2010 Posted November 18, 2010 Hi all,I am a Wado practitioner and, while practicing Bassai yesterday, the question was asked why the last shuto moves were performed slowly.We could not come up with a credable reason and I was hoping for input from the forum as to why this might be.Thanks
ps1 Posted November 18, 2010 Posted November 18, 2010 In Shotokan, they are not performed slowly. "It is impossible to make anything foolproof because fools are so ingenius."
Wastelander Posted November 18, 2010 Posted November 18, 2010 Hi all,I am a Wado practitioner and, while practicing Bassai yesterday, the question was asked why the last shuto moves were performed slowly.We could not come up with a credable reason and I was hoping for input from the forum as to why this might be.ThanksMy theories: somebody somewhere along the line thought it looked cooler slow, decided to make it symbolic, or they are used for slowly applying an armlock in the bunkai, although I don't know why you would do that slowly if you're being attacked. Kishimoto-Di | 2014-Present | Sensei: Ulf KarlssonShorin-Ryu/Shinkoten Karate | 2010-Present: Yondan, Renshi | Sensei: Richard Poage (RIP), Jeff Allred (RIP)Shuri-Ryu | 2006-2010: Sankyu | Sensei: Joey Johnston, Joe Walker (RIP)Judo | 2007-2010: Gokyu | Sensei: Joe Walker (RIP), Ramon Rivera (RIP), Adrian RiveraIllinois Practical Karate | International Neoclassical Karate Kobudo Society
tallgeese Posted November 18, 2010 Posted November 18, 2010 I have a coach who is fond of saying if you can't do it slow you won't be able to do it fast. Could be a learning tool, nothing more.Remeber too, kata's are not simulated fights. They are training modalities used to confer knowledge. Sometimes, they relate better to a physical text book than drill work.It's not mimicing a fight, it's trying to show you something. Granted, not many modern kata (if any) are designed this way, but the older ones are. Getting that will make kata make a lot more sense. http://alphajiujitsu.com/https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJhRVuwbm__LwXPvFMReMww
sojobo Posted November 19, 2010 Posted November 19, 2010 I have a coach who is fond of saying if you can't do it slow you won't be able to do it fast. Could be a learning tool, nothing more.Remeber too, kata's are not simulated fights. They are training modalities used to confer knowledge. Sometimes, they relate better to a physical text book than drill work.It's not mimicing a fight, it's trying to show you something. Granted, not many modern kata (if any) are designed this way, but the older ones are. Getting that will make kata make a lot more sense.I am impressed tallgeese, there are a lot of Wadoka out there that "don't get it" - as well as you seem to.Batoru - It is worth remembering that the "working bits" of Wado don't come from Okinawan karate - they come from Koryu jujutsu (namely Shindo Yoshin Ryu). SYR have literally hundreds of paired kata, but they also have solo kata / exercises (called Nairiki no gyo I believe) that are designed to manifest internal core strength through good movement, balance and body mechanics etc. Through training these solo kata the outputs can be applied to paired Kata to make them work.It’s my guess (and only a guess) that Otsuka used this approach - particularly with Kata like Naihanchi and seishan etc. Remember also that from a Wado perspective, Bassai is considered an "additional" kata and therefore only an exercise in variation of the techniques found in the official 9 Kata.Sojobo I know violence isn't the answer... I got it wrong on purpose!!!http://www.karatedo.co.jp/wado/w_eng/e_index.htm
Montana Posted November 21, 2010 Posted November 21, 2010 My theories: somebody somewhere along the line thought it looked cooler slow, decided to make it symbolic, or they are used for slowly applying an armlock in the bunkai, although I don't know why you would do that slowly if you're being attacked.Bassai (we call them Passai) kata's last moves are not "cooler" because they're done slow, they have bunkai, just like every other move in a kata.The final movements in the Bassai/Passai kata are techniques done in the dark where you can't see your opponent, and are "feeling" with your feet, then reaching out with one hand and grasping your opponents wrist and applying either an arm bar, or attacking the nerves in the neck with your other hand.No moves are done in "traditional" kata because they're cool. They all have a purpose and an application. If you don't want to stand behind our troops, please..feel free to stand in front of them.Student since January 1975---4th Dan, retired due to non-martial arts related injuries.
Montana Posted November 21, 2010 Posted November 21, 2010 Remeber too, kata's are not simulated fights. They are training modalities used to confer knowledge. Sometimes, they relate better to a physical text book than drill work.It's not mimicing a fight, it's trying to show you something. Granted, not many modern kata (if any) are designed this way, but the older ones are. Getting that will make kata make a lot more sense.Actually, traditional kata DO mimic fights. The movements are based upon the experiences of the origionators of the kata on techniques that they, themselves, used in a real situation. They found the techniques effective and incorporated them into kata to pass the techniques on to others.[/u] If you don't want to stand behind our troops, please..feel free to stand in front of them.Student since January 1975---4th Dan, retired due to non-martial arts related injuries.
brickshooter Posted November 22, 2010 Posted November 22, 2010 Hi all,I am a Wado practitioner and, while practicing Bassai yesterday, the question was asked why the last shuto moves were performed slowly.We could not come up with a credable reason and I was hoping for input from the forum as to why this might be.ThanksI'm guessing that if it was slowly done, then Wado wanted it to be a more complicated technique than a mere strike. Armbar? Some exotic strangulation?
Batoru Posted November 22, 2010 Author Posted November 22, 2010 Thanks all for your responses, we do a lot of bunkai and application work with kata and agree that they are a 'practical textbook' of sorts but we could not understand why, when the rest of the kata is done quickly, these moves were done slowly and quite precisely (changing of angles, looking in the opposite direction etc).I like the theory that it could be either done in the dark, a slow arm lock etc and it could also be to show the technique and practice it slowly to perfect the action.I am training with my senior sensei on Thursday and will discuss and come back to the thread.Thanks again.
sojobo Posted November 22, 2010 Posted November 22, 2010 Thanks all for your responses, we do a lot of bunkai and application work with kata and agree that they are a 'practical textbook' of sorts but we could not understand why, when the rest of the kata is done quickly, these moves were done slowly and quite precisely (changing of angles, looking in the opposite direction etc).I like the theory that it could be either done in the dark, a slow arm lock etc and it could also be to show the technique and practice it slowly to perfect the action.I am training with my senior sensei on Thursday and will discuss and come back to the thread.Thanks again.Bunkai is an Okinawan thing - Wado Kata does not have Bunkai. It is practiced the way it is (in Wado) primarily for Kinesthetic learning purposes.Sojobo I know violence isn't the answer... I got it wrong on purpose!!!http://www.karatedo.co.jp/wado/w_eng/e_index.htm
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