Creative/frestyle kata to music

[Irn Bru Freak]

I don't understand this.

Kata's are a colelction of techniques passed down from the masters as templates to hurt people. They contain the best techniques from a number of generations, a particular style.

How then, have we ended up with events based around made up kata done to music?

Do these people actually think they are learning/practising techniques that would be usable in a fight?

This kind of thing is utterly useless and I simply can't understand why we in the martial arts community see it of any value. eg:

Can someone explain ?

[ps1]

The argument you make about creative/musical kata is the same one I would make about all kata. Most people treat them as nothing more than a specified dance. All you see in this child's division is a reflection of that treatment. Art is always a reflection of the world in which it was made.

[Irn Bru Freak]

The argument you make about creative/musical kata is the same one I would make about all kata. Most people treat them as nothing more than a specified dance. All you see in this child's division is a reflection of that treatment. Art is always a reflection of the world in which it was made.

Sounds like you are saying you see the value in Kata, however most people dont use them as such?

or are you saying all kata is as good as free style kata to music non sense?

Hoping it's the former !

[sensei8]

I don't understand this.

Kata's are a colelction of techniques passed down from the masters as templates to hurt people. They contain the best techniques from a number of generations, a particular style.

How then, have we ended up with events based around made up kata done to music?

Do these people actually think they are learning/practising techniques that would be usable in a fight?

This kind of thing is utterly useless and I simply can't understand why we in the martial arts community see it of any value. eg:

Can someone explain ?

It boils down to one thing, imho, and that is....SELF EXPRESSION. Isn't that the core, and the right of every martial artist? To express themselves honesty to not only themselves, but to others as well. After all, self expression is of one's own personality, feelings, or ideas.

The practioner of music Kata is doing it for themself, first, and for the observer second. Hopefully, not always, the observers sees and feels what the practitioner is displaying through movements. The music sets THEIR Kata alive and without the music, it's STILL that practitioners own interpretation of body movements.

Kata to music allows just that!! A chance to see the practitoner put movements to music; this, imho, is beauiful to behold. Just as when we see dance put to music; its the dancers chance to express themselves honestly, as the visual properties of that music comes alive.

It's the beauty of watching the human body EXPRESS ITSELF!! Isn't that beautiful to behold? It is to me! I don't watch Kata done to music for it's effectiveness as much as I do for its beauty through expression.

Effective techniques will exist no matter the venue!! They either are or they aren't. But, imho, that's not what's important about the Music Kata division. No. Music marries Kata, and that is beauty, both in art and in the individual. I've never seen a rose as beautiful as THIS ROSE!!

Nothing will change that fact! In that, art is interpretated differently by its viewers. I see this picture my way, and someone else sees that same picture their way and the next person sees that same picture their way, so on and so on, but the picture remains the same in our eyes. So, is music Kata only for its effectiveness in the martial arts? Imho, it's not!! Parameters change because people change; it's inevitable, and in that, we need to accept that change.

Take a step back and don't judge music Kata for only its martial arts context, but judge it for its martial arts beauty! As a matter of fact...don't judge music Kata at all; allow it to just exist for what it's meant to be. Beauty is a characteristic of a person, animal, place, object, or idea that provides a perceptual experience of pleasure, meaning, or satisfaction, hence music Kata!

See it for what it is...BEAUTIFUL SELF EXPRESSION!!

[ps1]

The argument you make about creative/musical kata is the same one I would make about all kata. Most people treat them as nothing more than a specified dance. All you see in this child's division is a reflection of that treatment. Art is always a reflection of the world in which it was made.

Sounds like you are saying you see the value in Kata, however most people dont use them as such?

or are you saying all kata is as good as free style kata to music non sense?

Hoping it's the former !

Certainly the former. But most people treat it as nothing more than dance. "If you dance this kata well, you get that belt." People put way too much emphasis on kata (performed in a solo manner) in the dojo rather than focusing on partner drills and practicing the techniques contained therein. That is, when the instructors even know how to properly interpret their kata.

[Wastelander]

I can see value in a student developing their own patterns and running them to the rhythm of music--they are still practicing what they have learned and they are running it at a pace that is not necessarily their normal pace. That said, I have seen empty-hand and weapons "Musical Kata" divisions that consist of nothing more than acrobatics and High School Color Guard demonstrations. That isn't to say that those things are bad, but for the most part they have little to no martial value beyond sheer athleticism.

[Irn Bru Freak]

I have seen empty-hand and weapons "Musical Kata" divisions that consist of nothing more than acrobatics and High School Color Guard demonstrations. That isn't to say that those things are bad, but for the most part they have little to no martial value beyond sheer athleticism.

Summarises my point exactly.

Thanks

Karate developed into something like chinese wushu, looks great fun, but 5 year old with a spoon would be able to best you in a fight.

[tallgeese]

Back in my younger years, I would scoff at things like this. I even did a fair amount of razzing at kata.

Not that I don't think old forms contain good stuff (bear in mind most forms are modern creations with nothing much in the way of true hidden bunkai), but largely because we've moved forward socially and scientifically. This means that more efficient training methods exsist. Why do kata?

Personally, I don't and haven't in a while. Here's the thing I've realized as I've gotten a bit older and perhaps wiser:

The reasons I train in the arts are not the same as everyone elses.

Some might want to perserve tradition, some might like the old ways and seek to emulate those who came before. Some might just like to do kata or like to come to the self relization of what each movement of an old form might mean. But that's what they want out of the art.

My feeling on this: let them. That's the beauty of the arts. They are something different to everyone. Heck, I have studied some that serve different purposes to even me.

This means, I have to work to say this, that there's even a place for stuff like this. Of course it's not combat training, but those practitiones like to do it, so let them. It's not a reflection of your training, or your black belt. Who cares, if you've put the work in to reach black belt, or that level of competence in a system without a belt rank, then you should have developed an interal locus of control that helps develop your self worth. It shouldn't depend on someone elses view of kata or anything else.

Granted, it took me some years past black belt to fully grasp this concept as well.

So, whould I do it, no. But, is there a place for it? Sure. As long as some practitioners want to do it.

My problem comes when there is self dilusion about why your doing certain things. Or delusion on the part of an instructor towards a student by calling it "self defense". And the latter is usually a reflection of the instructors own self delustion aside from a few cases of straight up fraud. As long as everyone is up front, I don't see an issue.

[sensei8]

While I still like to watch and judge the Creative/Freestyle Kata divisions, I do agree that most of the techniques used by the competitors in these divisions are for pure "entertainment" value, and in that, their acrobatics and the like have no valid effectiveness across the board when the martial arts are concerned.

Irregardless, I enjoy these divisions because of the free expression of self in their movements. I'm judging on creativity and the likes akin to a judge of gymnastics and/or Ice skating, not on whether their "technique(s)" are valid and effective technique(s), because, most, not all, of their technique(s) are superficial, imho. I say not all because basic kihon can be seen. Like in a reverse punch or in a front snap kick or downward block. These are mixed in with the other acrobatics to, if for no other reason, fill in the blanks here and there.

No, for me, it's the expresson of self that I enjoy, just as I would if I was watching some other form of entertainment; self expression in the Creative/Freestyle Kata divisions, to me, is just that, entertainment. Imho, entertainment isn't suppose to be taken so serious. After all, when I've spoken to competitors before and after these divisions, they all, in their own ways, tell me that they do it as a way to relax and to be not so rigid in thought and fixed and bounded in the methodologies and the like that is found in the traditional divisions.

The olympic ice skater is bound and fixed in their performances for their run at the gold medal. Then, this same gold medalist olympiad is now skating, for example, with/for the Disney On Ice, now, this same skater uses her/his free expression for their, as well as our, entertainment purposes. That same Pro Tour skater wouldn't ever think of using those same "movements" that are used while on tour for their reclaiming another olympic gold medal.

Freestyle/Creative divisions are meant to be fun for all; competitiors and spectators alike.

[RW]

I agree and it's beautiful and all but... karate is a martial art.

Karate has (in my opinion) lost prominence as a martial art (remember when people used to call all martial arts "karate", just like all videogames were "nintendos"?), and Muay Thai has taken a lead as "the" striking martial art.

Some of the newer generations (especially the ones that follow mma) disregard karate a bit and say that its self-defense usefulness is limited and that "karate is more like a dance" (I have real heard that!)

Creative/music kata only makes it worse.