Sparring/kumite vs real fighting

[tallgeese]

Sparring is a training tool, nothing more or less. As others have pointed out very well, there are pluses and minuses to all versions of it.

People tend to veiw sparring as some sort of simulation. Which it isn't. It's a lab for you to put your tactics together in a safe enviornment and get "alive" repetitions under simultated duress. This will a) sharpen your weapns and b) get you used to dealing with the physiological changes that occur during conflict.

It's a useful tool, but only a tool. And it's usefulness is often determined by how well it's used and focused on goal.

Simulations should also occur. These are much like the aforementioned RSBD work, only (and I concur that these are less than highly useful without realism) they are armored with contact. Not armored sparring, but an attacker realisitically comeing at you. Of course, this too needs a dose of safety. You hae to build into this, hence, some lighter work is needed to bring one up to this . It's crawl, walk, run with this sort of training if you want to do it safetly.

Obviously, this too has it's place. It to is a tool, not the be all and end all of developing survival skills.

Remember too, that both can be corrupted by the fallicay that creeps in that these activities are why we are doing the arts. They are TOOLS, nothing more.

Based on your goals, and since the concept of fighting was brought up in the thread title, I'll assume you're interested in defending yourself on the street, you'll need to structure both to work towards that goal.

That might mean that you'll need to incorporate weapons of all sorts into both. Actually, you will have to. This, I'd add to the excellent list above, is often a downside to MMA schools-no weapons related training. Again, I don't expect it when I go there, one just needs to realize that if sd is your goal, you'll need to pick this training up somewhere.

Off topic, I think MMA is an excellet base to build street sd skills around. Just be aware that you'll need some fine tuning in some areas.

Back on, you'll also need to set up and drills you do to effect escape at times, or getting away. Maybe build in getting distance and getting to weapons that you carry. Accout for multiple attackers. All these can be integrated into the tools of both sparring, and simulated attacks. And they can be bildt in to the many levels of learning at each so that even new people are getting the benifit of the mindset switch that being to occur.

They are tools, make them work for you and your set of goals.

[bushido_man96]

Rule based fighting=A safe means to fine tune knowledge/skills

Real fighting=A real means to those fine tuned knowledge/skills

Imho!!

Not really.

Kumite and any form of rule based fighting you can only practise say 30% of potential techniques as in a real fight. You/we are practicing timing, footwork in a stand up fight with guards etc.

When was the last time you saw someone lift their hands up in a guard positon for a street fight, measure the distance and pull off a straight reverse punch? I haven't.

Do you practice glassing someone in your dojo? Do you practice poking eyes out? Tearing a set of keys across someone face? Ripping a finger out of it's socket? stamping on peoples rib cage? Pulling out a pen from your pocket and stabbing someone in the face? Pushing one opponent away from you as someone else comes in behind you with a knife?

What you practice in the dojo is different to what you would use in a real fight. We practice against polite martial artists, not the monsters that exist who really don't care.

The problem is that it is difficult, if not impossible, to practice some of the things you have mentioned in a way that is safe for training partners, and 100% realistic. If you add too much equipment, it takes away from the realness. If you add rules, it does the same. So, there has to be some happy medium in there. I think ps1's first post in response is a good indication of how to summarize the training aspect of these things. Yes, most types of sparring have rules of some kind. Its how things are kept safe so we can train again tomorrow.

[Irn Bru Freak]

The problem is that it is difficult, if not impossible, to practice some of the things you have mentioned in a way that is safe for training partners, and 100% realistic. If you add too much equipment, it takes away from the realness. If you add rules, it does the same. So, there has to be some happy medium in there. I think ps1's first post in response is a good indication of how to summarize the training aspect of these things. Yes, most types of sparring have rules of some kind. Its how things are kept safe so we can train again tomorrow.

I agree.

But lets make sure all karake-ka aware that being able to lung lunch someone to chest with no power at high speed, as will similar in fencing, will not work that well in a real fight.

The first black belt in norway was a woman, an incredibily good looking one at that, who was presented by her black belt by Eneoda non the less.... a couple of years ago a somali imigrent broke into her house and grabbed her, the first thign she did was a reverse punch to the stomach. It bounced right off the guy. He lifted her off the ground and she was lucky someone disturbed them before he did anything else. All of her karate training up until that point was based around sports concepts (touch point), not real fighting techniques. in the horredous sitatuion she had to use her tecnhiqie for real it simply didnt work. 20 years of training.

Sport/kumite karate is simply that. Part of training to increase reaction time, footwork.

Sport Karate/Kumite/any fighting with rules is simply not real fighting. As long as we all know that real street fighting techniques can be found in the kata, and practised using drills we can survive in an enviornment traditional karate was designed for. The street.

[ptr]

in the horredous sitatuion she had to use her tecnhiqie for real it simply didnt work. 20 years of training.

On a somewhat related note, you might find this interesting:

Shigeru Egami - an effective tsuki

[honoluludesktop]

IMO, no form of sparring substitutes for fighting. It doesn't mean that sparring in any form, doesn't contribute to fighting skills, they do, but there are some things involved in fighting that can not be replicated in "gaming".

If you fight, you must be willing to except any ramification including death, permanent disability (either side), jail, etc. You got to be able to knock your opponent unconscious, then break his bones in order to instill enough fear to circumvent revenge.

Ultimately, Karate, or any other martial art, serves itself.

[ThaiBoxerGene]

Anyone who gives you the response that Sparring in comparison to an actual conflict against someone else as the "same thing" is either a total tool or have never witnessed both ends of the stick.

When you are in a sparring sesh, you know your training partner. You like the guy (in most cases) and don't actually wish to harm him in a long term sense. You are basically in a comfort zone.

You are familiar with the environment and you know you are not in an aggressive state of attitude.

Now, put yourself in the same situation, except lets put you outside of your local Dave and Busters and replace your sparring partner with a drunk marine who is overly patriotic of his country.

You don't know this guy, you don't even know if he can either fight or has a weapon on him. Add that with the super adrenaline that is pumping through your veins and you become a primal state.

Most, if training properly, are able to retain a majority of their skills via muscle memory. But in some instances, I have heard from buddies about their buddies getting their butts kicked outside of a bar even though they hold a black belt in whatever art they do.

Of course, what I am explaining isn't always the case.

You never know how a situation will turn out. Nothing is ever define on paper. People need to grasp reality and stop living life with a mindset that you can take out five opponents with your bare-hands like in the movies.

[rmurray]

Sparring is simply practicing the skills and techniques you would be most likely to use in a streetfight based on your training i.e. punches, kicks, blocks etc.. It's also sthrengthening your fighting muscles and gaining you experience and confidence. Of course it will make you a better fighter, how good depends on the time you put into it. Practicing anything makes you better at it. Just because you spar doesn't make you the most dangerous man on the planet. But it might be the competitive edge you need if a stranger grabs your child, or some irate driver follows you into a parking lot. Most martial artists aren't aspiring to be the best streetfighters alive today. They just want the best chance to win the possible conflicts they might find themselves in. And sparring is a good exercise that helps their chances but allows them to live a normal life.

The type of people you would likely end up fighting in the street aren't going to have formal training and be practicing and conditioning regularly like you are. They are very possibly impaired or unrested. Your martial arts training and sparring experience will likely be enough. If not, it certainly wont work against you to have had the training and experience. Nobody promised that martial arts could save your life in every imaginable situation. But it will give you a huge advantage in many plausible situations you might encounter in regular everyday life.

And I beleive that many would be attackers and thugs are frequently knocked down by well timed, beautifully executed teqchniques.

[rmurray]

There seems to be this story that pops up now and then about these blackbelts at this bar in Anytown, USA. These blackbelts are always getting their butts kicked out back. I have heard several manifestations of this since I was a child...

The Blackbelts I know are from Karate and BJJ. They are typically too diciplined and driven to be carousing around local taverns running into trouble. And they are very competent, extremely dangerous fighters. It's true most blacbelts will never be in a real fight (it is there way). They certainly aren't going to be out losing fights.

[Soheir]

The problem is that it is difficult, if not impossible, to practice some of the things you have mentioned in a way that is safe for training partners, and 100% realistic. If you add too much equipment, it takes away from the realness. If you add rules, it does the same. So, there has to be some happy medium in there. I think ps1's first post in response is a good indication of how to summarize the training aspect of these things. Yes, most types of sparring have rules of some kind. Its how things are kept safe so we can train again tomorrow.

I agree.

But lets make sure all karake-ka aware that being able to lung lunch someone to chest with no power at high speed, as will similar in fencing, will not work that well in a real fight.

The first black belt in norway was a woman, an incredibily good looking one at that, who was presented by her black belt by Eneoda non the less.... a couple of years ago a somali imigrent broke into her house and grabbed her, the first thign she did was a reverse punch to the stomach. It bounced right off the guy. He lifted her off the ground and she was lucky someone disturbed them before he did anything else. All of her karate training up until that point was based around sports concepts (touch point), not real fighting techniques. in the horredous sitatuion she had to use her tecnhiqie for real it simply didnt work. 20 years of training.

Eather she was training for completely something else. Or she was training badly. I'm gessing the first one, because what else would make her first attempt into that? Let's just hope she didn't think she could "win" or make it from situations like that. I mean trust on that... Of course anyone could make it, and one can train on many different ways even the style being sport.. But you gotta know your chances.