Sparring/kumite vs real fighting

[Irn Bru Freak]

What are our thoughts on the differences between sparring/kumite/point fighting/boxing/thai boxing etc any rule based contest and street fighting?

I've come across a number of people recently who see them as the same thing.

To me the former is akin to fencing, and the latter on a battlefield with a

What say you people of the forum?

[ps1]

What are our thoughts on the differences between sparring/kumite/point fighting/boxing/thai boxing etc any rule based contest and street fighting?

I've come across a number of people recently who see them as the same thing.

To me the former is akin to fencing, and the latter on a battlefield with a

What say you people of the forum?

There have been a number of threads on this topic over the years. In the end, very little is ever conceded by either side on this argument. However, I will use your examples and a few of my own to attempt to illustrate my points.

Sparring/kumite/point fighting: These are games. There is often very light contact and knockouts are almost never acceptable (except a few martial arts). They are good for learning coordination and timing...nothing more. Few examples of this are able to build fighting skill. Therefore, they tend to be useless for self defense altercations.

RBSD arts: They tend to have hard sparring that includes lots of grabs and strikes. However, they don't usually believe in using protective gear which leads to strikes making only light contact. This, in turn, leads to the attacker having to "properly react" to each strike in order for the moves to work. The problem is that not all people react to a strike in the same way. A strike to the groin requires your attacker to bend over and grab at their groin. However, in my experience, most trained people and people under the influence of drugs, don't respond to the strike much at all. Therefore, while it's certainly better than arts that just point spar, your opponents are still being compliant to you. This is only moderately useful in preparing for a street altercation.

Boxing/ thai boxing/ mma/ BJJ (I will also lump knockdown karate styles in here): These are martial sports. That is to say, they have a very high level of aliveness in their training. You actually get hit very hard in a multitude of places and ways. You train against someone who is absolutely trying to stop what you are doing to them. While there are rules that govern them, it is those same rules that allow the high level of violence to exist in the art. The arguments against these arts tends to be in the non-lethality of the techniques being used. However, I would rather relegate myself to a few moves I am sure work rather than those people feel work in theory. I feel, for preparing of an actual altercation, these are the best types of arts to train because you have learned to deal with both being hit and using your skills against a person trying to stop you.

Side Note: The Key here is aliveness. That is, fully preforming techniques against a resisting opponent who is trying to preform their techniques on you. Anyone practicing any art that is following this principle will usually find they are able to apply their art in an actual altercation. What I am saying is it's more about the aliveness than the particular style you practice.

This is the point of view I've developed. As you'll see in responses, there are many others. Welcome to the forums!

[Irn Bru Freak]

Can't fault your points at all.

I follow a simple if somewhat flawed line of reasoning in that anything where there there are rules containing the fight, leads someone into unrealistic techniques for the street.

Granted, developing high impact strikes in the combat sports helps balance this slightly.

[sensei8]

Rule based fighting=A safe means to fine tune knowledge/skills

Real fighting=A real means to those fine tuned knowledge/skills

Imho!!

[Jeffrey]

Rule based fighting=A safe means to fine tune knowledge/skills

Real fighting=A real means to those fine tuned knowledge/skills

Imho!!

Simple and to the point. Good post!

[brickshooter]

Gym based sparing: You have rules. Nice smooth floors. The referee won't kick you in the head. No hidden knives. No tunnel vision. Everything is under a nice and safe controlled environment. Heartbeat is about 130. You get to "feel out" your opponent, take your time to measure his strenght and weakness. Frankly, your attacker is very much like you. And in a worst case scenario - you wake up.

Street fighting: A lot of chaos. It just needs to be over as soon as possible. The longer it goes on, the more you lose control of your environment. Heartbeat is probably close to 200. Your attacker is likely much bigger than you. If he's not, he's carrying a weapon, or his buddies are standing right behind you.

[Irn Bru Freak]

Rule based fighting=A safe means to fine tune knowledge/skills

Real fighting=A real means to those fine tuned knowledge/skills

Imho!!

Not really.

Kumite and any form of rule based fighting you can only practise say 30% of potential techniques as in a real fight. You/we are practicing timing, footwork in a stand up fight with guards etc.

When was the last time you saw someone lift their hands up in a guard positon for a street fight, measure the distance and pull off a straight reverse punch? I haven't.

Do you practice glassing someone in your dojo? Do you practice poking eyes out? Tearing a set of keys across someone face? Ripping a finger out of it's socket? stamping on peoples rib cage? Pulling out a pen from your pocket and stabbing someone in the face? Pushing one opponent away from you as someone else comes in behind you with a knife?

What you practice in the dojo is different to what you would use in a real fight. We practice against polite martial artists, not the monsters that exist who really don't care.

Edited November 8, 2010 by Irn Bru Freak

[ps1]

Rule based fighting=A safe means to fine tune knowledge/skills

Real fighting=A real means to those fine tuned knowledge/skills

Imho!!

Not really.

Kumite and any form of rule based fighting you can only practise say 30% of potential techniques as in a real fight. You/we are practicing timing, footwork in a stand up fight with guards etc.

When was the last time you saw someone lift their hands up in a guard positon for a street fight, measure the distance and pull off a straight reverse punch? I haven't.

Do you practice glassing someone in your dojo? Do you practice poking eyes out? Tearing a set of keys across someone face? Ripping a finger out of it's socket? stamping on peoples rib cage? Pulling out a pen from your pocket and stabbing someone in the face? Pushing one opponent away from you as someone else comes in behind you with a knife?

What you practice in the dojo is different to what you would use in a real fight.

I think you'll find yourself pretty much preaching to the choir with your comments. Most of us have "practiced" many of those things. There are alot of very high level martial artists on this forum. However, I believe what you're getting at is that while you can "practice" those movements, you can't actually do them to another human being without causing significant harm. Which is my whole point when it comes to aliveness in training. If you can't ever practice it, it's just theory. So stick to moves that can be practiced. Everyone needs oxygen. So the choke is my favorite fight ender, hands down. I would take the choke over an eye rake or rib stomp or knife stab any day. I choke...you pass out. Fight is over.

[sensei8]

Rule based fighting=A safe means to fine tune knowledge/skills

Real fighting=A real means to those fine tuned knowledge/skills

Imho!!

Not really.

Kumite and any form of rule based fighting you can only practise say 30% of potential techniques as in a real fight. You/we are practicing timing, footwork in a stand up fight with guards etc.

When was the last time you saw someone lift their hands up in a guard positon for a street fight, measure the distance and pull off a straight reverse punch? I haven't.

Do you practice glassing someone in your dojo? Do you practice poking eyes out? Tearing a set of keys across someone face? Ripping a finger out of it's socket? stamping on peoples rib cage? Pulling out a pen from your pocket and stabbing someone in the face? Pushing one opponent away from you as someone else comes in behind you with a knife?

What you practice in the dojo is different to what you would use in a real fight.

I've already offered up my thought/opinion, therefore, the summation of 'why' is to the summation of 'because'!!

[ps1]

Can't fault your points at all.

I follow a simple if somewhat flawed line of reasoning in that anything where there there are rules containing the fight, leads someone into unrealistic techniques for the street.

Granted, developing high impact strikes in the combat sports helps balance this slightly.

Many people follow that line of thought. And, at first glance, it doesn't seem flawed. But it's not until you experience it for yourself that you will truly realize why it's flawed. That's my whole point. Fighting can only be mastered through experience of it. The closer your training is to that experience, the better you will be and more efficient your techniques will be. Sport, is as close to real fighting as we can come without killing one another in street altercations. It teaches you to deal with the physiology changes that come with an adrenaline dump. I remember my first BJJ tournament, it felt like my fingers were all glued together (you lose small motor function when your adrenaline dumps), I had tunnel vision, my heart was racing. In time, I learned to deal with this.