Original Karateka didn't spar, they wrestled

[kozushi]

Original Karateka didn't spar, they wrestled.

I think modern day karateka should go back to this. The katas, being a judo and fencing guy, all look to me like wrestling and weapon moves. There is very little kickboxing in them (some of course, but surprisingly little.)

I only know the taikyoku and heian katas, however.

[ps1]

Original Karateka didn't spar, they wrestled.

I think modern day karateka should go back to this. The katas, being a judo and fencing guy, all look to me like wrestling and weapon moves. There is very little kickboxing in them (some of course, but surprisingly little.)

I only know the taikyoku and heian katas, however.

Do you have anything that documents this statement? And to which karateka (Okinawan, Japanese or even more specific to a particular style) are you refering? I should point out that I'm not saying you're wrong, just that such a bold statement requires some proof.

[tallgeese]

I'm with ps1 here, I'd like a historical breakdown on that.

Now, I think it's obvious that once you really dig into the old forms that there is a much deeper connection to grapping that one would expect. However, not in the way it's though of today.

There are alot of movements that deal with tuite, with sweeps and reaps, with what would most likely be close quarters striking, often to pressure points and instances of joint destructions via what is typically called "locking" (these are what you'll often hear me refer to as "joint manipulations").

I know, odd hearing this sort of thing come from me, but I've been very fortunate in people I've trained with thru the years. Many have been much more tradition in their upbring than mine, and did their best to pass this on, even if it didn't really take with me .

Even so, I don't think you'd call it grapping in the way we think of it today. Ceratinly all that I learned could be called more accuratly clinch work by todays standards I suppose.

One of my pet peeves is groups that went and created ground techniques in their katas after the Gracies hit the States and suddenly ground tactis were "found" in exsisting kata. I know, it sounds silly to me too, but pleaty of that happened. Be proud of your art for what it does, don't try and make it fit every hole. If it's lacking in something, ie ground if it's a karate based art, weapons if it's an mma based art, ect, the go and find and art to study that fills in these gaps. Don't try to reconfigure one tool to make it do a job it's not designed for. Everything ends up getting the short end.

Now, I'm not saying that the "grappling" I'm aware of in kata couldn't go deeper. Certainly, kata has not been my area of expertise thru the years. I'd just like to see deeper proof of the statement.

[ps1]

One of my pet peeves is groups that went and created ground techniques in their katas after the Gracies hit the States and suddenly ground tactis were "found" in exsisting kata. I know, it sounds silly to me too, but pleaty of that happened.

Me too. This book is a prime example. I've read it and it's nothing but BJJ inserted into TKD forms:

http://www.amazon.com/Taekwondo-Grappling-Techniques-Competitive-Martial/dp/0804840067/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1289242115&sr=8-1

[Kuma]

Depends on who you consider an "original Okinawan karateka."

Karate is karate. You may be thinking of tegumi, or Okinawan wrestling, which is different from karate (but karate does have elements of tegumi in it).

[sensei8]

Depends on who you consider an "original Okinawan karateka."

Karate is karate. You may be thinking of tegumi, or Okinawan wrestling, which is different from karate (but karate does have elements of tegumi in it).

Absolutely!

Tuite is very big in Shindokan, so much so, that everything is built around it, and in that, everything leads up to and ends at Tuite.

Enjoy this...

http://www.ikigaiway.com/2009/tegumi-okinawan-grappling-and-wrestling/

[sojobo]

One of my pet peeves is groups that went and created ground techniques in their katas after the Gracies hit the States and suddenly ground tactis were "found" in exsisting kata. I know, it sounds silly to me too, but pleaty of that happened. Be proud of your art for what it does, don't try and make it fit every hole. If it's lacking in something, ie ground if it's a karate based art, weapons if it's an mma based art, ect, the go and find and art to study that fills in these gaps. Don't try to reconfigure one tool to make it do a job it's not designed for. Everything ends up getting the short end.

Now, I'm not saying that the "grappling" I'm aware of in kata couldn't go deeper. Certainly, kata has not been my area of expertise thru the years. I'd just like to see deeper proof of the statement.

Hi tallgeese,

As a dyed in the wool Karate-ka/Japanese Jujutsuka, I couldn't agree more.

I even heard once a theory that if you performed the Pinan Kata(s) on the floor on your back (as if you were doing them standing up) then these could be translated as grappling techniques/scenarios.

Unfortunately I think it is all to do with the fact that Kata - in a gymnastic sense - is easy to see and therefore understand. Kata in an internal sense is much more difficult and can't be communicated over internet forums. To understand their place better, you need to look into the strength building kata (Nairikki no gyo) etc. and understand that there is more involved than the direct combative translation.

But what do I know...

Sojobo

[sojobo]

Depends on who you consider an "original Okinawan karateka."

Karate is karate. You may be thinking of tegumi, or Okinawan wrestling, which is different from karate (but karate does have elements of tegumi in it).

Hello,

I wouldn't get too hung up on words like "Tegumi".

After all, its just another way to write "Kumite" ("Te"=hand and "Kumi" (or "gumi" if it follows a word)=exchange) therefore Kumite = Tegumi.

And all Karate has Kumite doesn't it?

Sojobo

[bushido_man96]

One of my pet peeves is groups that went and created ground techniques in their katas after the Gracies hit the States and suddenly ground tactis were "found" in exsisting kata. I know, it sounds silly to me too, but pleaty of that happened.

Me too. This book is a prime example. I've read it and it's nothing but BJJ inserted into TKD forms:

http://www.amazon.com/Taekwondo-Grappling-Techniques-Competitive-Martial/dp/0804840067/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1289242115&sr=8-1

Hmm. Crazy. I can tell you I've not learned any grappling in my TKD training, or forms. I've seen some interpretations, but they were not my own, and none were actually floor grappling; all were more akin to Hapkido type moves.

[Kuma]

Depends on who you consider an "original Okinawan karateka."

Karate is karate. You may be thinking of tegumi, or Okinawan wrestling, which is different from karate (but karate does have elements of tegumi in it).

Hello,

I wouldn't get too hung up on words like "Tegumi".

After all, its just another way to write "Kumite" ("Te"=hand and "Kumi" (or "gumi" if it follows a word)=exchange) therefore Kumite = Tegumi.

And all Karate has Kumite doesn't it?

Sojobo

I've never heard of Tegumi being considered the same as Kumite. From all accounts I've read, Tegumi is basically a folk wrestling style.