Isshinryu Generally Speaking

[cejames]

These are interesting videos of isshinryu.

kamahithedruid: Interesting but not Isshinryu. Just because someone says it is, someone wears the patch or someone says they teach Isshinryu does not necessarily mean that it is Isshinryu.

In my humble opinion all of your examples are merely someone who has adapted what they do for strictly "competitive reasons" so that they can compete in the "generally accepted manner" of competition. Everything I saw in those video's was boxing with kicks, not Isshinryu.

This is where things become muddled. Most of the original Isshinryu, except if few cases, were subverted in the name of money and competition and trophies and accolades and societal acceptance as what is "perceived" to be karate but is NOT.

This stuff is and always will be "kick boxing or boxing with karate like kicks" in it. This trend started in the seventies and has gotten worse. One of my pet peeves is misunderstanding/misconceptions as to what is truly "traditional," "classical," "modern," and/or "sport" oriented practice.

Just me/my standpoint. Lastly, don't always believe what you see, read, view, or are told as most Isshinryu is in name only and hollow in practice.

[sojobo]

In the end, all karate must be taught and practiced as originally intended as beginners/novices BUT must be assimilated and changed to fit the individual which means, like Tatsuo was known to do, changes will come about as one progresses.

If you practice the fundamental techniques today then tomorrow when you practice it will have changed to fit you personally without losing its core attributes.

Karate was never supposed to be this do it this way every time forever type thing but an evolving and dynamic practice that will truly grow and morph into something more with each practice and each practitioner.

I digress, but hopefully conveyed something useful.

Hi Charlie,

Yes you did thank you.

What you seem to be describing is the process of "Shu-Ha-Ri". I am very familiar with this.

If, as you say, Isshin ryu is a bringing together of various Karate styles – can I ask - how does it cope with the diverseness of core principles.

For example Goju operates on a very different level than Shorin-ryu etc.

Sojobo

[cejames]

sojobo: expand a bit more on what you mean.

[isshinryu5toforever]

That would be why I put quotes around "traditional." Gojuryu and Shorinryu are young, but they're deemed culturally traditional to Okinawa. Isshinryu isn't that much younger, but because it was made up by someone later, it isn't deemed a similar cultural asset. I think Tsuyoshi Uechi is trying to change that.

As far as the videos, I'd agree that the boxing with take downs is just boxing with some wrestling. The full contact competitions don't bother me though. A lot of Isshinryu schools are missing aliveness in their training. Kata, bunkai, and kumite should all be linked together. You should be able to apply what you learn in kata to kumite, but actually hitting each other is a good start. There's a steep learning curve to be able to actually apply what you do in kata to kumite. Live sparring is the only way to do it.

Also, after the talk of personalization, how can we talk about whose Isshinryu is real and whose is not?

[cejames]

That would be why I put quotes around "traditional." Gojuryu and Shorinryu are young,

[Not much younger than Isshinryu]

but they're deemed culturally traditional to Okinawa.

[believe it or not this occurred only because those styles when created actually kept their respective kata exactly as practiced before the naming which pleased those who say what is cultural vs. what is not cultural. Tatsuo ran into that issue many times during his creative process, i.e. take the vertical punch change for kata, he went back and forth many times to the twist punch simply because the so-called traditionalists didn't like his changes as they went against their grain so when Isshinryu actually proved itself they still had "feelings" so it remained outside the cultural aspects. It is now considered a branch of the Shorin ryu system. If you look closely it is listed on some Okinawan sites as a Shorin Ryu system. If you check the tournament rolls when an Isshinryu practitioner attends the officials list it as a Shorin ryu system, etc. Interesting … ]

Isshinryu isn't that much younger, but because it was made up by someone later,

[shorin and Goju were basically "made up by someone" but because they were more amicable to the old ways they were readily accepted. Tatsuo just could not remain with the old ways and in this he was very astute. He understood the changes, i.e. his studies of the I Ching, etc., would change everything so he changed. If you look the vertical fist is now used a lot in all styles even if the kata are still twist punching, i.e. why Tatsuo wanted to change as he would say to first gen stu's, if you don't use the twist punch then why practice it in kata, etc.]

it isn't deemed a similar cultural asset. I think Tsuyoshi Uechi is trying to change that.

[Yes, he is working to get the recognition.]

… A lot of Isshinryu schools are missing aliveness in their training.

[i believe this is because they are so engrossed in trophies, competition, gaining ranks, status (which is one of those survival things mother nature gave us long ago so it has significant effect on our lives) accolades, and most of all "power" that they have missed the boat. To bad!]

Kata, bunkai, and kumite should all be linked together.

[i agree and disagree here on this one. Kihonteki, kata, and kumite are actually the trilogy of karate-do and karate-jutsu but the connection is not necessarily a link per say but the connections are necessary to make it work both in fighting, street that is, and in way of empty hand stuff. It is complex in its simplicity. Kihonteki sets the fundamentals and foundation of self defense/self protection with kata the blueprint to expand and to morph it into unique applications for the individual with kumite, always the last stage to make it work for real, in its various stages of practice that brings it all together. What most miss is the fundamental drill/free aspects of kata to kumite as they are to quick to reach the fun stuff and that is why a lot of kumite, Isshinryu as well as many other styles, looks like kickboxing and not real karate.]

You should be able to apply what you learn in kata to kumite, but actually hitting each other is a good start.

[Most important to hit something. In reality for every hour of practice you should be devoting fifteen minutes of it to hitting something, i.e. makiwara, heavy bag, floating makiwara, etc.]

There's a steep learning curve to be able to actually apply what you do in kata to kumite.

[Yes, most assuredly BUT if one just wants to fight, to compete, or to quickly learn to defend that can be done quickly. If one truly wants to learn and apply karate to life and protective aspects then it does take some time; but that is also not as long as most folks think.}

Live sparring is the only way to do it.

[Depends on how you get to the live sparring. I don't allow it, i.e. free style, until I am shown they can make it work in drills, etc. and that can be anywhere between brown belt and Sho-dan. I don't let sparring of any kind until at least the green belt level and then very controlled until I sense the innate ability to make it work. But that is me.]

Also, after the talk of personalization, how can we talk about whose Isshinryu is real and whose is not?

[this is the crux of all problems in all MA/FMA. We think this is supposed to be "exactly" as taught by the creator/master, etc. this was not the way of karate or Ti on Oki before the Japanese got involved and the need to put it into the schools, etc. no one before the late 1800's practiced and trained this way and all of them accepted their karate and then make it their own, unique, but with the foundation intact.

I teach it exactly, or as close as possible, as Tatsuo meant to teach it but understand that after green belt most students will be adjusting things naturally and sometimes so minutely it can't be seen readily to something unique that works for them. Ergo, any one who is to teach must learn both. How to teach the core foundation exactly as it was created but also allowing for a practitioner to make it their own. The only way to truly follow the way. This is also why more than four students/practitioners per Sensei is too many.]

[sojobo]

What bit? "Shu-ha-ri", or the differing core principles between styles.

If it is the latter, I am referring predominantly to the difference in style between Karate like Goju and Uechi compared to the Shuri-te styles.

But I am also referring to the differing pedagogies of these styles.

How do you successfully capture the essence of these (between the differing styles) without changing them to the point where the individuals styles way of functioning has been eroded.?

sojobo

[cejames]

What bit? "Shu-ha-ri", or the differing core principles between styles.

If it is the latter, I am referring predominantly to the difference in style between Karate like Goju and Uechi compared to the Shuri-te styles.

But I am also referring to the differing pedagogies of these styles.

How do you successfully capture the essence of these (between the differing styles) without changing them to the point where the individuals styles way of functioning has been eroded.?

sojobo

Ahh, that is the crux of the issue for if the practitioner fails to morph it into individual practice with restraint, i.e. keep the principles that are fundamental to the style intact, then it becomes subject to convolution and loses its spirit, etc.

This is not what I suggest. We all do things a bit different according to perceptions, understanding, and differing body types, etc. thus change is inevitable but the core, the principles of the system, must remain.

[iesureddo]

I am well aware of the politics involved in Isshinryu. You guys each have a decade on me, but I've been around a little while. Politics aren't what I'm really interested in. I'm interested in aliveness. It's true that a lot of people want to be the next MMA star, especially after seeing what Lyoto Machida did in the UFC using Shotokan as his standup. Ryo Chonan did it in Pride years before using Kyokushin, and you can still see glimpses of Kyokushin in what GSP does.

I think the biggest thing that MMA has done to help the martial arts community is that people have to take a look at training methods. I've only visited 4 or 5 Isshinryu dojo in the US, but most of them didn't have a lot of aliveness in their training. Foam dipped gear, not hitting pads, statuesque one step partners. You know, they punch, then stand there with their arm out so you can finish the technique. That's fine for introducing people to concepts, but black belts shouldn't be doing it. I've got to admit, it drives me a little crazy, especially because they bill themselves as self-defense oriented first.

In honesty, I'd like to see Isshinryu organizations start putting on knockdown competitions for those that want to try out what they're learning on other people full-contact. Maybe one or two a year would be nice. That's not something in my power though, I'm a bit too young to enact that kind of change.

That would be a great idea, but i Think politics would hinder that also.

[iesureddo]

Hi, All:

I have studied the Isshinryu system for about 34 years. There is a good deal of misinformation on it out there. If anyone has a specific question, not a generalization, on Isshinryu just post or reply to this post and I will attempt to clear the air.

One important caveat is that it would be my personal standpoint only. Because we are all humans we all perceive and relate to things in a unique form but I hope to have an open mind allowing for "just the facts" in responding.

I have no need to become emotional or obsessive about what I know, practice, and teach. The maxim I try to live by is a quote from Tatsuo many years ago, "All bottles are good, they all serve a purpose!"

In regards to comparison of styles this is a waste of time. There are to many variables out there to truly do a comparison. In the end all styles are good, they all serve a purpose and what I try to do when asked is to let folks know that each one has its own unique personality and the best one can do is find the one or several that fit your personality; that suits you and what you wish to accomplish and go for it.

Respectfully,

Charlie

I once read that Master Long knew that none of his students would be able to carry on his legacy of leadership so he decided to make it grow the only way his guys knew... through competition.

With that being said. What do you know about the the first Three pioneers. how was their relationship? Did they get along? Im sure they did. IF THAT IS TRUE, was Master Long doing what Master Shimabuku did with them or was it different with the Pioneers? Master Mitchum would not be included in the first three because he stayed a lot longer than the other two.

[kamahlthedruid]

http://www.rbkaratecenter.com/ I found a IOGKF Goju Ryu dojo in san diego and I think they have irikumi type sparring. What is the difference between goju ryu's irikumi and isshinryu's jiyu kumite?