from shotokan to kyokushin

[kansascityshuffle]

I started out in shito ryu and goju ryu. I have a nidan in shito ryu and a shodan in goju ryu. Through a series of events I ended up in muay thai and kyokushinkai due to my muay thai coach being a former Sabaki champion. I'm testing for my sandan in kyokushinkai in summer and don't really look back to the other martial arts I have studied but muay thai.

Not all kyokushin is the same, neither. Keep that in mind...there is bad kyokushin just like there is bad everything else. If you like the dojo you find train there, if you don't, don't stay just because others online say kyokushin is great.

[Dobbersky]

I started out in shito ryu and goju ryu. I have a nidan in shito ryu and a shodan in goju ryu. Through a series of events I ended up in muay thai and kyokushinkai due to my muay thai coach being a former Sabaki champion. I'm testing for my sandan in kyokushinkai in summer and don't really look back to the other martial arts I have studied but muay thai.

Not all kyokushin is the same, neither. Keep that in mind...there is bad kyokushin just like there is bad everything else. If you like the dojo you find train there, if you don't, don't stay just because others online say kyokushin is great.

And if you want a change from Kyokushin but still want the Knock Down karate Kumite, there's always Ashihara karate, Enshin Karate and Daido Juku Kudo (MMA in a Gi)

OSU

[bushido_man96]

He did not highlight katas. In his own training or his teaching. But he did practise them a lot and they have always been a part of Kyokushin that you can not take away. Katas represent a big part of karates budo aspect, and if budo is taken away, it is no longer real karate. There is still different versions of all the katas.

I think that this is debateable. I think that when some aspect of training is adhered to for so long, and then someone decides to try something new without it, it freaks people out, and they don't like to refer to it as "real" anymore, when I don't think this is necessarily the case.

When you're talking about the Budo aspect of Japanese Karate, kata aren't very debatable. That's pretty much their purpose. The aesthetic perfection of every single technique in a kata is the lifetime goal of someone that does Budo. Kata, kumite, and kihon are not as linked in Japanese Karate as they are in Okinawan. That isn't to say a link doesn't exist, it just isn't as prevalent in my experience. Once you take away kata, Japanese Karate's kumite, Kyokushin's in particular, becomes more akin to kick boxing, specifically because they have modified their methods throughout the years, and Muay Thai has been a big influence on Kyokushin's sparring.

I think it ends up being more about what you want to highlight out of the training. Some will highlight forms more, and some will highlight sparring more, and others maybe other aspects. Its getting to the point where I just don't feel the same about forms as I did in the past. What irks me a bit is saying "if you take forms away, all you have is Kickboxing." This isn't the case. Kickboxing itself is a sport Martial Art, and just because one does Kickboxing, doesn't mean they can't do forms, too.

[isshinryu5toforever]

He did not highlight katas. In his own training or his teaching. But he did practise them a lot and they have always been a part of Kyokushin that you can not take away. Katas represent a big part of karates budo aspect, and if budo is taken away, it is no longer real karate. There is still different versions of all the katas.

I think that this is debateable. I think that when some aspect of training is adhered to for so long, and then someone decides to try something new without it, it freaks people out, and they don't like to refer to it as "real" anymore, when I don't think this is necessarily the case.

When you're talking about the Budo aspect of Japanese Karate, kata aren't very debatable. That's pretty much their purpose. The aesthetic perfection of every single technique in a kata is the lifetime goal of someone that does Budo. Kata, kumite, and kihon are not as linked in Japanese Karate as they are in Okinawan. That isn't to say a link doesn't exist, it just isn't as prevalent in my experience. Once you take away kata, Japanese Karate's kumite, Kyokushin's in particular, becomes more akin to kick boxing, specifically because they have modified their methods throughout the years, and Muay Thai has been a big influence on Kyokushin's sparring.

I think it ends up being more about what you want to highlight out of the training. Some will highlight forms more, and some will highlight sparring more, and others maybe other aspects. Its getting to the point where I just don't feel the same about forms as I did in the past. What irks me a bit is saying "if you take forms away, all you have is Kickboxing." This isn't the case. Kickboxing itself is a sport Martial Art, and just because one does Kickboxing, doesn't mean they can't do forms, too.

In general Kyokushin puts and emphasis on hard sparring. The kata aren't as integral a part of the style. I never said that kickboxing was a bad thing, but aside from the kihon, it starts to look more like Muay Thai or even trouser kickboxing (blast from the past?) when you take the kata away from Kyokushin.

I never said kickboxing wasn't a martial art, and you can do kata and kickboxing, but Muay Thai isn't Japanese Budo. That's where the difference comes in. I guess I should have made my point clearer. I was talking about Budo in Japanese Karate with the statement.

For something like Kyokushin, you need to practice the entire syllabus to truly practice the Budo part of Kyokushin. It's because kata aren't necessarily part of the fighting method in Japanese Karate. The kata are there for aesthetic perfection. The idea of bunkai isn't really Japanese. Bunkai is just a Japanese word applied to an Okinawan idea. The kata of Okinawan Karate are the fighting method. The fighting method of Kyokushin has nothing to do with the Kyokushin kata.

From my experience, Japanese Karate is comprised of kihon, kata, and kumite. The three are linked, but not necessarily connected. Kihon is a way to practice things you need for both kata and kumite, but kata and kumite aren't necessarily linked. You won't use what you find in the kata in kumite. The ultimate goal of Okinawan Karate is to use exact parts of the kata in your kumite. Everything in Okinawan Karate revolves around kata. You get your fighting method and your kihon from the kata. That isn't true in Japanese Karate. Also, the idea of Budo also doesn't exist in Okinawan Karate, or at least it shouldn't, because modern Budo is a WWII-era Japanese government invention.

The Okinawan people are Japanese citizens, and Okinawa belongs to Japan, but they are culturally different in many ways. That shows in the differences in Karate practice in Japan and Okinawa pre-Funakoshi, and even when he first brought Karate to the mainland.

[kansascityshuffle]

Not all "Okinawan" karate is Okinawan, not all Kyokushin is really Kyokushin. There is bad karate out there. It's up to the individual to get a bit educated and train for a while experiencing other styles and instructors to find what's right for them. I thought the OP was interested in Kyokushin or something similar so this thread has definitely drifted from it's course.

From my own experience with kyokushin I will say this, there have been so many fractions and splinter groups that there are a few that have the kyokushin name that I wouldn't consider kyokushin.

Kyokushin is known for having strong fighters and sending students to knockdown tournaments against other styles. If you train at a dojo that never sends students to all styles knockdown tournaments, never to any knockdown tournaments, or to only fight inner dojo tournaments I would beware.

Just because somebody is a nice person doesn't mean they're a good martial artist, too. I have known some horrible dojo owners that have no business owning a dojo but are the nicest people in the world.

[bushido_man96]

He did not highlight katas. In his own training or his teaching. But he did practise them a lot and they have always been a part of Kyokushin that you can not take away. Katas represent a big part of karates budo aspect, and if budo is taken away, it is no longer real karate. There is still different versions of all the katas.

I think that this is debateable. I think that when some aspect of training is adhered to for so long, and then someone decides to try something new without it, it freaks people out, and they don't like to refer to it as "real" anymore, when I don't think this is necessarily the case.

When you're talking about the Budo aspect of Japanese Karate, kata aren't very debatable. That's pretty much their purpose. The aesthetic perfection of every single technique in a kata is the lifetime goal of someone that does Budo. Kata, kumite, and kihon are not as linked in Japanese Karate as they are in Okinawan. That isn't to say a link doesn't exist, it just isn't as prevalent in my experience. Once you take away kata, Japanese Karate's kumite, Kyokushin's in particular, becomes more akin to kick boxing, specifically because they have modified their methods throughout the years, and Muay Thai has been a big influence on Kyokushin's sparring.

I think it ends up being more about what you want to highlight out of the training. Some will highlight forms more, and some will highlight sparring more, and others maybe other aspects. Its getting to the point where I just don't feel the same about forms as I did in the past. What irks me a bit is saying "if you take forms away, all you have is Kickboxing." This isn't the case. Kickboxing itself is a sport Martial Art, and just because one does Kickboxing, doesn't mean they can't do forms, too.

In general Kyokushin puts and emphasis on hard sparring. The kata aren't as integral a part of the style. I never said that kickboxing was a bad thing, but aside from the kihon, it starts to look more like Muay Thai or even trouser kickboxing (blast from the past?) when you take the kata away from Kyokushin.

I never said kickboxing wasn't a martial art, and you can do kata and kickboxing, but Muay Thai isn't Japanese Budo. That's where the difference comes in. I guess I should have made my point clearer. I was talking about Budo in Japanese Karate with the statement.

For something like Kyokushin, you need to practice the entire syllabus to truly practice the Budo part of Kyokushin. It's because kata aren't necessarily part of the fighting method in Japanese Karate. The kata are there for aesthetic perfection. The idea of bunkai isn't really Japanese. Bunkai is just a Japanese word applied to an Okinawan idea. The kata of Okinawan Karate are the fighting method. The fighting method of Kyokushin has nothing to do with the Kyokushin kata.

From my experience, Japanese Karate is comprised of kihon, kata, and kumite. The three are linked, but not necessarily connected. Kihon is a way to practice things you need for both kata and kumite, but kata and kumite aren't necessarily linked. You won't use what you find in the kata in kumite. The ultimate goal of Okinawan Karate is to use exact parts of the kata in your kumite. Everything in Okinawan Karate revolves around kata. You get your fighting method and your kihon from the kata. That isn't true in Japanese Karate. Also, the idea of Budo also doesn't exist in Okinawan Karate, or at least it shouldn't, because modern Budo is a WWII-era Japanese government invention.

The Okinawan people are Japanese citizens, and Okinawa belongs to Japan, but they are culturally different in many ways. That shows in the differences in Karate practice in Japan and Okinawa pre-Funakoshi, and even when he first brought Karate to the mainland.

I'm seeing what you are saying here, Richard, and its starting to make sense to me. Thanks for taking the time to elaborate a bit. It has helped me out.

[isshinryu5toforever]

@kansascityshuffle I think we can all agree that there is bad karate, chuanfa, MMA, etc. out there, but if we're talking about a legitimate place with legitimate instructors then we don't have to make that caveat.

I think most on a martial arts board are aware, or are quickly aware, that there are Mcdojo's/McDojang's/whatever else out there. That doesn't illegitimate what was discussed regarding the difference between Okinawan and Japanese Karate.

He had questions about different ryu-ha. Yes, the conversation has drifted a little, but after 4 pages, a conversation on the internet tends to do just that.

@Brian, you're welcome.

[kansascityshuffle]

@kansascityshuffle I think we can all agree that there is bad karate, chuanfa, MMA, etc. out there, but if we're talking about a legitimate place with legitimate instructors then we don't have to make that caveat.

I think most on a martial arts board are aware, or are quickly aware, that there are Mcdojo's/McDojang's/whatever else out there. That doesn't illegitimate what was discussed regarding the difference between Okinawan and Japanese Karate.

He had questions about different ryu-ha. Yes, the conversation has drifted a little, but after 4 pages, a conversation on the internet tends to do just that.

@Brian, you're welcome.

To cut to the chase I don't agree with many on here what is Okinawan, Westernized, Japanese, etc. karate.

I honestly don't care if someone makes up a style as long as they know what they're doing and are honest about it instead of making up some fictional lineage/history.

Back to the original poster's concern..shotokan to kyokushin is fine. You'll have to unlearn and relearn certain things and I doubt will want to go back to shotokan if you find a good kyokushin dojo.

[isshinryu5toforever]

Most of the differences are philosophical, not practical. I never put down making up your own system. All the styles currently practiced were made up at some point. There is a philosophical difference though. If a martial art is taught properly, philosophy has little bearing on the end result, but it will influence some of the training, and the ideas behind what training you are doing.

As far as honesty is concerned, I agree with you 100%.

And if you disagree so much, why don't you tell us what your ideas are? That would help a whole lot more than just saying, I don't agree period.

[kansascityshuffle]

Most of the differences are philosophical, not practical. I never put down making up your own system. All the styles currently practiced were made up at some point. There is a philosophical difference though. If a martial art is taught properly, philosophy has little bearing on the end result, but it will influence some of the training, and the ideas behind what training you are doing.

As far as honesty is concerned, I agree with you 100%.

And if you disagree so much, why don't you tell us what your ideas are? That would help a whole lot more than just saying, I don't agree period.

I have to add the caveat of good and bad kyokushin because it's out there. I'm not getting political with the different kyokushin groups neither, most of them are 110% legit.

I won't say what my ideas are openly because people will get hurt, my post will be deleted and so on. My intention isn't to hurt peoples feelings but to help others interested in kyokushin find legit kyokushin and good instruction with no bias of the kyokushin org I'm under, neither.

Just trying to give some advice to the original poster that actually pertains to him learning kyokushin and not something else with the kyokushin name. Message me if you want to know more.