Jiu Jitsu, highly effective stand up.

[sojobo]

I agee ps1, I don't buy it either.

As I said,

I believe you can do both - you just need to train hard and have a very good sensei.

Sojobo

Perhaps this is the case. But, you can look down the road (since we are talking about a journey) of each, and see which gets you to where you want to be faster, i.e., being able to defend yourself effectively, or what have you.

Now, that isn't to say that "I want my Martial Arts in a Happy Meal bag, ready to go right now, so I can have it and be done with it." That's not what I am saying. When it comes to discussions like this, the proponents of the "lifelong journey" often make cases of getting somewhere fast, and then not having a foundation to build on, or they think they've found it all, and have nothing left to search out. That just isn't the case. The case is that when training is efficient and focused, then by arriving at one place in the journey sooner, allows one to continue down other avenues sooner. I don't like to put it all into a time frame, but the fact that time matters is a point that really can't be argued. There are only so many hours in a day, and we can only do so much, and eventually, our time runs out. So, time is a factor, unfortunately.

I have no problems with anyone who wants to delve into cultural ideals and historic bases of different MA disciplines. But I do think that the fact of the matter is that there are some disciplines that have changed and updated their training routines and regimines that do make their learning curve smaller, and therefore, may be a more efficient training method.

I don't disagree with this at all - particularly if the rapid acquisition of effective sd skills is your main priority.

I would say though that learning a complete system from the ground up is not an entire waste of time either, and there are often things in comprehensive systems that are somewhat hidden to the observer - or the person that just wants to use individual "techniques" as part of a broader repertoire of martial material - or not as the case in question.

As I have mentioned before, in any Sogo Bujutsu worth its salts, there has to be a common theme that transmits through all of individual facets of the Ryu - a commonality of principles if you were. This is the DNA of a particular school - not necessarily the techniques it does.

Granted, this is the bit that does take time (and a very good teacher) to bring to life, however -whether the time spent to acquire this fits in within an individual’s timetable is a choice for them.

The Koryu group that I train with practice a style called Sosuishi-ryu Kumi Uchi Koshi no Mawari. I know, a bit of a mouthfull, but it actually refers to what I mention above.

It is a comprehensive system:

Kumi Uchi - means grappling (armed and unarmed)

Koshi no Mawari (Literally around the hip) refers to the comprehensive study Sword, Kodachi and Tanto (dagger).

The key however is the fact that the core principles learned in the Kumi Uchi also transmit through to the work with the sword - and vice versa. So even when I am doing Kenjutsu I am also improving my Jujutsu.

Not for everyone I know - but also not useless.

Sojobo

Edited October 16, 2010 by sojobo

[sojobo]

It's easy to say that about something like aikido. However, let's talk about iaido. While the mindset that is required to master the art is quite useful to anyone, the martial movements are quite antiquated.

Hi PS1,

Iaido of course is developed out of Iaijutsu (or Battojutsu) as a tool for self improvement rather than martial function.

I am inclined to agree with you that even from a martial perspective "Iai" practiced in isolation is fairly redundant in today’s world, but as I mentioned to Bushido_man - practiced as part of a larger system it will help engrain those common principles that make the ryu tick.

Is that to say they are fruitless... no... far from. However, the art will not help you much in a fight today. This is because there is no aliveness in the art. I believe that, in dissecting aikido will give you the same result.

Depends where you train. In my group fo example, even when learning the "omote" of the kata, training is re-inforced with practice done against a live opponent (usually the instructor) who puts you under pressure.

This is a video of Morihei Ueshiba performing "no touch" moves. ^

I'll never believe in any art that tells its practitioners you can cause bodily harm while making no contact with the opponent.

Me neither.

Sojobo

[bushido_man96]

I would say though that learning a complete system from the ground up is not an entire waste of time either, and there are often things in comprehensive systems that are somewhat hidden to the observer - or the person that just wants to use individual "techniques" as part of a broader repertoire of martial material - or not as the case in question.

I may be misinterpreting what you are saying here, but it sounds like you think that the type of system I have described is neither complete nor comprehensive, and I don't think that is the case. Its just the paths and methodologies that are different.

[JiuJitsuNation]

More great take downs by one of the greatest. At about 2:40 in Jacare gets his arm broken by Roger Gracie and finishes the match to win by an advantage. You can see his arm flopping around after he frees it. although you can't see it in the video he sticks it in his belt to protect it while he finishes out the match. Huge heart

[sensei8]

More great take downs by one of the greatest. At about 2:40 in Jacare gets his arm broken by Roger Gracie and finishes the match to win by an advantage. You can see his arm flopping around after he frees it. although you can't see it in the video he sticks it in his belt to protect it while he finishes out the match. Huge heart

Solid Shugyo!!

[sojobo]

I would say though that learning a complete system from the ground up is not an entire waste of time either, and there are often things in comprehensive systems that are somewhat hidden to the observer - or the person that just wants to use individual "techniques" as part of a broader repertoire of martial material - or not as the case in question.

I may be misinterpreting what you are saying here, but it sounds like you think that the type of system I have described is neither complete nor comprehensive, and I don't think that is the case. Its just the paths and methodologies that are different.

Hello, when I say comprehensive, from a sogo bujutsu perspective, it refers to the range of arts that are taught as part of the schools curriculum.

Whilst some koryu practice specific disciplines only (ie just Kenjutsu), some schools are multi disciplined so as well as covering Kenjutsu, they will also include Iajutsu as well as Jujutsu etc. Some go even further and include techniques in things like bojutsu (staff fighting), naganatajutsu (glaive) and even hojojutsu (tying/arresting arts).

The latter are sogo bujutsu or the comprehensive system I was referring to, and as I said the important thing that makes all these diciplines bind together as a specific schools way of doing them are the common principles that flow through them all.

Sojobo