Jiu Jitsu, highly effective stand up.

[JiuJitsuNation]

Honestly I can't see the practicality in doing this. I understand where it came from and I understand the tradition side of it. However, it's not a POSITION and one has many opportunities to stand in grappling including coming out from the bottom. Wouldn't this be the same as us starting in chairs? Sincerely I don't see where this is useful. Am I overlooking something?

Hello,

I do not study BJJ so I would not know whether or not it would be of any benefit - in terms of getting better at BJJ. In my experience in Koryu Jujutsu however (which bear in mind is often very different in both its approach and also requirements compared to Gendai Jujutsu) - it is good at what it is designed to do.

As I mentioned earlier; ime, idori helps isolate certain movements and restricts others - the end result being greater efficiency of movement. The theory is this "efficiency" of movement is then applied to stand up techniques - making them all the more effective.

Sojobo

Fair enough!

[tallgeese]

I get what you're saying, about isolating small movements to work, but I still have to go with Nation's intial thoughts. If you're training for sd, it's a practice whose time has probabily passed. You can drill small motions with deliberiate purpose while in more realistic positions. I think it's really more of a tradition thing now, or as Nation made the comment on, a way to minimize takedown injuries.

Now, again, if you're training to keep a tradition alive, there's no problem at all with this. But you really have to realistically ask why you're doing an art.

For sd, you're actually better off training out of a chair since that's where we spend a big portion of our time off our feet. A couple of times a year I'll end up doing juft that to keep the ideas fresh. I should probabily do it more, but my goals have changed over the years.

Now I am more likely to enter conflict as an aggressor, essintially. As a cop, I'm rarely ambushed from sitting but more often am moving to take someone into custody. So, in addition to evaluating the resons you do an art, you also have to continually evaluate your needs within that art.

My thoughts, that's all.

[JiuJitsuNation]

When I was first exposed to jiu jitsu we started on our knees. I believe my first instructors had various backgrounds with no formal training. However I am still friends with these guys and we are all BJJ black belts ten years later. Anyway I had done that for 2 years before starting with Master Palhares. He would always yell at us "Don't wrestle from the knees! This don't make since man, fights don't start on the knees." (Thick Portuguese accent)

[sojobo]

I get what you're saying, about isolating small movements to work, but I still have to go with Nation's intial thoughts. If you're training for sd, it's a practice whose time has probabily passed. You can drill small motions with deliberiate purpose while in more realistic positions. I think it's really more of a tradition thing now, or as Nation made the comment on, a way to minimize takedown injuries.

Now, again, if you're training to keep a tradition alive, there's no problem at all with this. But you really have to realistically ask why you're doing an art.

For sd, you're actually better off training out of a chair since that's where we spend a big portion of our time off our feet. A couple of times a year I'll end up doing juft that to keep the ideas fresh. I should probabily do it more, but my goals have changed over the years.

Now I am more likely to enter conflict as an aggressor, essintially. As a cop, I'm rarely ambushed from sitting but more often am moving to take someone into custody. So, in addition to evaluating the resons you do an art, you also have to continually evaluate your needs within that art.

My thoughts, that's all.

Hello,

To qualify my posts, I was not trying to suggest that training from kneeling position was the most efficient method of training from a “modern day” self defense perspective.

@ tallgeese - As a law enforcement officer your martial skills are on the front line 100% and I respect that and admire that of you. Therefore it is in your own interest to make sure that you practice most diligently what is going serve you best in this area - to keep yourself alive.

My original response was to a post that suggested that techniques from kneeling position were of little use, followed by another that suggested that they existed in the main to reduce risk of injury when falling.

There is validity in both statements; however there is also a singularity of mindset which suggests that unless an exercise manifests immediate results (from a self defense or sporting perspective) it is a useless one. Ultimately, if the end result of your training doesn't work for you, then your training as a whole is useless. From a koryu Jujutsu perspective however (and let’s remember that’s where all jujutsu came from), training from the knees was effective both from a sd perspective (at the time) and as a training methodology. It was/is a piece of training apparatus that helped the koryu become effective as whole – not the individual technique.

Effectively, its the sum of the parts.

Sojobo

[bushido_man96]

Honestly I can't see the practicality in doing this. I understand where it came from and I understand the tradition side of it. However, it's not a POSITION and one has many opportunities to stand in grappling including coming out from the bottom. Wouldn't this be the same as us starting in chairs? Sincerely I don't see where this is useful. Am I overlooking something?

Hello,

I do not study BJJ so I would not know whether or not it would be of any benefit - in terms of getting better at BJJ. In my experience in Koryu Jujutsu however (which bear in mind is often very different in both its approach and also requirements compared to Gendai Jujutsu) - it is good at what it is designed to do.

As I mentioned earlier; ime, idori helps isolate certain movements and restricts others - the end result being greater efficiency of movement. The theory is this "efficiency" of movement is then applied to stand up techniques - making them all the more effective.

Sojobo

In my time in Aikido, I've seen these done as well. I'm not a big fan of them, either. But, they are required more and more at higher levels. But, the Aikido school doesn't like striking, either, and I still do it, so I'll probably take these on as I get more time in, too.

I'll do it, but I don't have to like it!

[bushido_man96]

My original response was to a post that suggested that techniques from kneeling position were of little use, followed by another that suggested that they existed in the main to reduce risk of injury when falling.

There is validity in both statements; however there is also a singularity of mindset which suggests that unless an exercise manifests immediate results (from a self defense or sporting perspective) it is a useless one. Ultimately, if the end result of your training doesn't work for you, then your training as a whole is useless. From a koryu Jujutsu perspective however (and let’s remember that’s where all jujutsu came from), training from the knees was effective both from a sd perspective (at the time) and as a training methodology. It was/is a piece of training apparatus that helped the koryu become effective as whole – not the individual technique.

Effectively, its the sum of the parts.

Sojobo

The training may not be useless, but the question is whether there are more effective and practical ways to come to the same ends. In the Martial Arts world, there is always resistance to changing a training methodology, or for that fact, getting rid of one to bring in another. This is a terrible thing, too, as it stifles the evolution of the Arts.

[bushido_man96]

We either start from an established position or we start standing. No wrestling from the knees as I have seen in many places.

At the DT club I have been attending, they were doing free rolling at the end of the session, and they started from lying down, side by side, with maybe a foot of space between each, heads facing opposite. I wasn't sure why.

I haven't done any of the free rolling yet, but when I do get back there (I've been sick the past week), I intend to try.

[isshinryu5toforever]

If you're practicing a Japanese Koryu martial art for the purpose of preserving the art, stopping change isn't a bad thing. In fact, it's kind of the point. It's preserving one single thing as perfectly as possible. I'd say that is historic preservation first, self defense second. That's just my opinion though, and others are welcome to pick it apart haha.

Now, if you're looking for the most efficient way to learn how to defend yourself against a resisting opponent, then yes, there are much better ways and more alive drills. That's about all I can add as a non-grappler.

[bushido_man96]

I don't have a problem at all with historic preservation. I do have a problem when those preserving history like that then argue for its effectiveness of efficency after its time has passed.

[sojobo]

I don't have a problem at all with historic preservation. I do have a problem when those preserving history like that then argue for its effectiveness of efficency after its time has passed.

I believe you can do both - you just need to train hard and have a very good sensei.

Sojobo