Jiu Jitsu, highly effective stand up.

[sojobo]

I agree. Starting on the knees is just silly. It's just a game of muscle from there, not to mention that it's completely unrealistic for both sport and self defense.

Most Koryu jujutsu have "Idori" or practice from kneeling in their curriculum.

It is excellent training for isolating the smaller movements and learning to do techniques efficiently rather than letting the larger muscle groups of the body take over and "forcing a technique through.

Sojobo.

[JiuJitsuNation]

It's widely done mostly to prevent the vast number of injuries that occur during take downs.

[sojobo]

Hello,

I think this is more a happy coincidence. Traditionally, in many Koryu, the "Mokuroku" (or Catalogue) featured techniques done in both standing and kneeling positions.

The reasoning behind this was purely functional - bearing in mind that "Seiza" was the common seated position of the time - and a fair amount of time was spent in it (particularly when indoors). If your repertoire didn't feature the ability to defend (and attack) from this position you had a problem - and you would be a sitting duck (literally).

The fact that this practice also lent itself to learning "efficiency" as a byproduct - led it be kept on as part of the curriculum in many Gendai arts like Daito-ryu, Aikido and even some Karate styles like Wado-ryu.

It is a very powerful training tool.

Sojobo

[ps1]

Hello,

I think this is more a happy coincidence. Traditionally, in many Koryu, the "Mokuroku" (or Catalogue) featured techniques done in both standing and kneeling positions.

The reasoning behind this was purely functional - bearing in mind that "Seiza" was the common seated position of the time - and a fair amount of time was spent in it (particularly when indoors). If your repertoire didn't feature the ability to defend (and attack) from this position you had a problem - and you would be a sitting duck (literally).

The fact that this practice also lent itself to learning "efficiency" as a byproduct - led it be kept on as part of the curriculum in many Gendai arts like Daito-ryu, Aikido and even some Karate styles like Wado-ryu.

It is a very powerful training tool.

Sojobo

When I trained under a Yagu Ryu instructor, we learned many techniques from kneeling. But as you mentioned, it was a training tool and the movements were performed in isolation. Certainly, this is a useful method of training those techniques.

The training I am referring to is truly randori beginning on the knees. From the knees, there are no throws. In essence, what usually happens is the two opponents go at each other like pit bulls until one pushes the other into guard or manages to step around him into side control.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKz9L0vzGLo

This is a link to the stuff I'm talking about. These guys make it look much prettier than it is. Quite often, guys just use it to circumvent the guard position because they aren't good at passing. Also notice that it's just not a realistic position from which a fight (sport or otherwise) would start.

[sojobo]

Hello,

I think this is more a happy coincidence. Traditionally, in many Koryu, the "Mokuroku" (or Catalogue) featured techniques done in both standing and kneeling positions.

The reasoning behind this was purely functional - bearing in mind that "Seiza" was the common seated position of the time - and a fair amount of time was spent in it (particularly when indoors). If your repertoire didn't feature the ability to defend (and attack) from this position you had a problem - and you would be a sitting duck (literally).

The fact that this practice also lent itself to learning "efficiency" as a byproduct - led it be kept on as part of the curriculum in many Gendai arts like Daito-ryu, Aikido and even some Karate styles like Wado-ryu.

It is a very powerful training tool.

Sojobo

When I trained under a Yagu Ryu instructor, we learned many techniques from kneeling. But as you mentioned, it was a training tool and the movements were performed in isolation. Certainly, this is a useful method of training those techniques.

The training I am referring to is truly randori beginning on the knees. From the knees, there are no throws. In essence, what usually happens is the two opponents go at each other like pit bulls until one pushes the other into guard or manages to step around him into side control.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKz9L0vzGLo

This is a link to the stuff I'm talking about. These guys make it look much prettier than it is. Quite often, guys just use it to circumvent the guard position because they aren't good at passing. Also notice that it's just not a realistic position from which a fight (sport or otherwise) would start.

Hello,

When you say you trained with a "Yagu" instructor, do you mean an instructor in Yagyu Shingan-ryu or Yagyu Shinkage-ryu?

Sojobo

[JiuJitsuNation]

Honestly I can't see the practicality in doing this. I understand where it came from and I understand the tradition side of it. However, it's not a POSITION and one has many opportunities to stand in grappling including coming out from the bottom. Wouldn't this be the same as us starting in chairs? Sincerely I don't see where this is useful. Am I overlooking something?

[ps1]

When you say you trained with a "Yagu" instructor, do you mean an instructor in Yagyu Shingan-ryu or Yagyu Shinkage-ryu?

Sojobo

I had the feeling you were going to ask me this question. As much as I hate to say it, I simply do not know. I learned it under John Viol Shihan ( http://www.seishinkan.com/martial_members_area/john_viol_daishihan_menkyokaiden.htm ) during about a year and a half sogo bujitsu course he was hosting (the course was longer than a year and a half, that's just how long I participated). During that time, one of the many things we covered was "Yagyu Ryu Ju Jitsu and Kenjitsu". It was not until after i stopped training with him that I learned about the Shinkage/Shingan verbiage. You are not the first person to ask. It is odd to me that it was not stated during the course. But he simply never told us any more than "Yagyu Ryu." I believe his website has the means to contact him if you choose. He may be a very interesting person for you to get to know.

[sojobo]

When you say you trained with a "Yagu" instructor, do you mean an instructor in Yagyu Shingan-ryu or Yagyu Shinkage-ryu?

Sojobo

I had the feeling you were going to ask me this question. As much as I hate to say it, I simply do not know. I learned it under John Viol Shihan ( http://www.seishinkan.com/martial_members_area/john_viol_daishihan_menkyokaiden.htm ) during about a year and a half sogo bujitsu course he was hosting (the course was longer than a year and a half, that's just how long I participated). During that time, one of the many things we covered was "Yagyu Ryu Ju Jitsu and Kenjitsu". It was not until after i stopped training with him that I learned about the Shinkage/Shingan verbiage. You are not the first person to ask. It is odd to me that it was not stated during the course. But he simply never told us any more than "Yagyu Ryu." I believe his website has the means to contact him if you choose. He may be a very interesting person for you to get to know.

Hello ps1,

Thank you for the link. From what I can glean from the website, my guess would be that it is Yagyu Shingan ryu rather than Yagyu Shinkage ryu.

Yagyu Shinkage ryu is primarily a sword school (coming from Shinkage ryu of course). This group seems to be far more "comprehensive" in terms of the disciplines taught - this bears out in the use of the work "Sogo bujutsu" which means comprehensive rather than focused on one particular skill set. You also mentioned that he referred to the Jujutsu being taught as Yagyu jujutsu

I don't think they are a Koryu group. Instead they are a group that practices a wide range of various Koryu arts - if that makes sense.

Sojobo

[sojobo]

Honestly I can't see the practicality in doing this. I understand where it came from and I understand the tradition side of it. However, it's not a POSITION and one has many opportunities to stand in grappling including coming out from the bottom. Wouldn't this be the same as us starting in chairs? Sincerely I don't see where this is useful. Am I overlooking something?

Hello,

I do not study BJJ so I would not know whether or not it would be of any benefit - in terms of getting better at BJJ. In my experience in Koryu Jujutsu however (which bear in mind is often very different in both its approach and also requirements compared to Gendai Jujutsu) - it is good at what it is designed to do.

As I mentioned earlier; ime, idori helps isolate certain movements and restricts others - the end result being greater efficiency of movement. The theory is this "efficiency" of movement is then applied to stand up techniques - making them all the more effective.

Sojobo

[ps1]

Hello ps1,

Thank you for the link. From what I can glean from the website, my guess would be that it is Yagyu Shingan ryu rather than Yagyu Shinkage ryu.

Yagyu Shinkage ryu is primarily a sword school (coming from Shinkage ryu of course). This group seems to be far more "comprehensive" in terms of the disciplines taught - this bears out in the use of the work "Sogo bujutsu" which means comprehensive rather than focused on one particular skill set. You also mentioned that he referred to the Jujutsu being taught as Yagyu jujutsu

I don't think they are a Koryu group. Instead they are a group that practices a wide range of various Koryu arts - if that makes sense.

Sojobo

Thanks for the info. It seems to make sense. Among other things we practiced were Tanbo, Hanbo, Rokushakubo, Tanto, Kenjutsu, and Tonfa. We focused on the similar skills between the weapons and performing junretsu (I believe that's how it is spelled...permutations is the english) of combining strikes.

Thanks again.