Full contact?

[sojobo]

I think it depends on how you train Kata.

Solo kata (Pinan Nidan etc.) can and should teach timing and distance in a "kinesthetic" sense.

Paired Kata (yakusoku kumite) crystallises this against an opponent.

As my instructor says, everything in keiko that is “prescribed” is Kata, the only thing that isn't is Kumite.

Sojobo

[Soheir]

Kata hold everything that a martial art has. If you ignore that and want to skip to the "good part" aka sparring, then you are completely missing the point.

I don't think this is true, because not every style has forms as part of the training. Nor do I think that just because forms are part of some MA training, that it isn't necessarily the most important part. You can't train reaction, timing, or distance with forms training. These are all important attributes when it comes to self-defense.

It's not true if kata doesn't belong to the style. But in those that it does, it doesn't have to be the most important part, just to be a necessity for the style to be that style. Reaction, timing and distance are things that you can't practice in kata, that's why it shouldn't be the only part of the style. Expecially, if we're talking about self-defence.

[Snake1725681530]

Kata hold everything that a martial art has. If you ignore that and want to skip to the "good part" aka sparring, then you are completely missing the point.

I don't think this is true, because not every style has forms as part of the training. Nor do I think that just because forms are part of some MA training, that it isn't necessarily the most important part. You can't train reaction, timing, or distance with forms training. These are all important attributes when it comes to self-defense.

It's not true if kata doesn't belong to the style. But in those that it does, it doesn't have to be the most important part, just to be a necessity for the style to be that style. Reaction, timing and distance are things that you can't practice in kata, that's why it shouldn't be the only part of the style. Expecially, if we're talking about self-defence.

It's a fair point. A balance needs to be struck. Theory without practical or vice-versa only leads to incomplete development of a martial artist.

[Dobbersky]

I as an Ashihara karateka understand the concept of Full Contact Sparring.

When the Blackbelts spar against each other its fast and you know when you've been hit etc. I know that the lower Kyu grades, when I'm sparring with my Assistant Instructor, are open mouthed and always say they wish they could Spar like us.

In my school I always explain that the lower grade controls the pace. If the lower grade wants to be tippy tappy then thats fine, but I advise that the higher grades are not human punchbags, if the lower grade steps it up I expect the higher grade to step it up too.

I tend to use sparring with the lower grades as a lesson for them, pointing out things they can or should dop etc. Also I get then to know what it feels like to put combinations together. I am the first person anyone entering my club gets to spar with.

I know when it comes to levels of contact, especially in the UK, there are various Insurance issues. Some Insurers will not insure Full Contact schools. Even some NGB's wont take on Full contact schools either. This means that if you get injured in a full contact session, technically neither are insured. Check the small print.

I enjoy Full Contact Sparring so much.

OSU!!!!

[bushido_man96]

Solo kata (Pinan Nidan etc.) can and should teach timing and distance in a "kinesthetic" sense.

If you are talking about kicking or punching fast, you are talking about time, not timing. Its like running a race, and then checking how fast you did it. Its not the same thing as timing your techniques with the interaction of another's techniques. And as far as distancing goes, unless you're pretty good at jamming your own techniques, then the only thing you are really doing with distancing in forms practice is looking at how long your arms and legs are.

[ninjanurse]

Solo kata (Pinan Nidan etc.) can and should teach timing and distance in a "kinesthetic" sense.

If you are talking about kicking or punching fast, you are talking about time, not timing. Its like running a race, and then checking how fast you did it. Its not the same thing as timing your techniques with the interaction of another's techniques. And as far as distancing goes, unless you're pretty good at jamming your own techniques, then the only thing you are really doing with distancing in forms practice is looking at how long your arms and legs are.

The repetitive nature of "looking at how long your arms and legs are" while doing kata builds spatial awareness that allows the mind to calculate distances in relation to persons or objects in the environment. Given enough time it becomes automatic and thus enhances timing and accuracy. This same effect can also be accomplished by practicing "step sparring" with attackers of various heights and proportions.

[honoluludesktop]

IMO, full contact sparring is a misnomer, unless you are in combat where there are no rules, where winning is to survive by taking out the other fellow.

[bushido_man96]

Solo kata (Pinan Nidan etc.) can and should teach timing and distance in a "kinesthetic" sense.

If you are talking about kicking or punching fast, you are talking about time, not timing. Its like running a race, and then checking how fast you did it. Its not the same thing as timing your techniques with the interaction of another's techniques. And as far as distancing goes, unless you're pretty good at jamming your own techniques, then the only thing you are really doing with distancing in forms practice is looking at how long your arms and legs are.

The repetitive nature of "looking at how long your arms and legs are" while doing kata builds spatial awareness that allows the mind to calculate distances in relation to persons or objects in the environment. Given enough time it becomes automatic and thus enhances timing and accuracy. This same effect can also be accomplished by practicing "step sparring" with attackers of various heights and proportions.

I don't disagree with you. But after 15 years of forms and basics, I think I've derived all the spatial awareness that I can without having a partner.

[RW]

I'm new here but definitely not new to martial arts. I just turned 28 and I started when I was 13ish. Unfortunately, I fell out of love with my Goju dojo and I left for a few years. I dabbled in a few other styles of Karate that never really set with me.

I've done a good share of sparring and in the latter years of my Goju days (I was a brown belt) I was doing some heavy contact sparring. As I look back now, I realize that since I was never really taught the body dynamics of making power I never knew how to make power. No matter how many times I would spar. I was focusing on the wrong thing. Technique and "good karate" won't come from endless sparring matches. Speed, conditioning and a faster reaction time come from sparring matches.

Now I train in a very traditional style of Shorin Ryu. More roundness to your limbs, more connectedness throughout your body equals more power. Not constant sparring. Training your body to know the motions in your kata as second nature need to be the focus, not sizing yourself up to someone else.

I've been training with my Shorin Ryu instructor for three years now and I've learned more from kata, kumite and some light sparring then I ever did from a class that gave me 80% sparring and 20% kata. Kata hold everything that a martial art has. If you ignore that and want to skip to the "good part" aka sparring, then you are completely missing the point.

Not trying to bash anyone's thinking here. Just offering my own perspective from a traditional and non competition point of view.

Bruce Lee said it himself, "At the beginning competition is healthy, but in the end it only breeds contempt and resentment."

EDIT: I also want to add, that the goal of kumite and sparring isn't to injure anyone. It's to use the full force and -not- injure the person. Anyone can throw everything they have into a punch, but it's the martial artist who can control that punch until the moment of impact. It takes years of skill to execute a perfect technique or strike with all your power and stop it before it hits. That's what sparring (to me) is really about. Learning control. If you can learn to control your hit to not hurt, then when you need to you can certainly go all the way.

Osu phoenixzion. I'm very much in agreement with what you wrote regarding Kata. For the longest time, I looked down on Kata (not having studied karate) and always saw sparring as something much more beneficial. Having recently picked up Kyokushin, I have to say that Kata is the essence of Karate. It's not only fantastic for learning techniques but also for hardening the spirit and I find myself practicing the few I know for hours on my resting days from training. This, for me, is unusual, as I'm training 5 days a week

To the OP. I haven't done full contact sparring yet- but did lots of semi contact in my Muay Thai days. I will though (as is inevitable with Kyokushin) and I look forward to it because I seek to push my body to it's limits and go beyond- One of the reasons I love Kyokushin

So you went from Muay Thai to Kyokushin?

Whick kind of kicking do you prefer? (MT shin kicks vs Kyokushin chambered, instep kicks). Which one do you feel is more applicable for combat?

[RW]

So, kumite = distance, timing, reaction

kata = conditioning

Is this right? Did I miss any (self defense) benefits that come from either?