Yet another pro- kata/form topic...

[DWx]

As per bushido_man96 and sensei8’s request: http://www.karateforums.com/a-question-to-my-tkd-practitioners-if-i-may-vt39407-10.html

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Do forms have a place in the modern martial art?

For me the key point to bear in mind is that the practicing of kata does not replace other types of training, rather it’s supplementary to the rest of your training. Forms alone aren’t going to turn you into a great martial artist but if you build them into your training schedule and practice them in the right way they can help. Why do I think forms are so great? It comes down to two things really. Firstly I think that as an exercise, forms encompass so many different aspects of training into one practice. Subsequently, and this is my second reason, if used in the right way, they fit very nicely into a structured training model.

One of the criticisms people often make about forms is that if the movements are intended to be applied in combat or in sparring practice, why not go straight to the source as it were and learn the movements in scenario specific drills because that would save time and therefore be more beneficial. If the application of technique is all you are interested in then maybe that would be the way to go. But if you want to develop other things at the same time such as balance, focus, power, conditioning etc. you’ll have to spend more time working on other training methods to develop those and end up spending even more time training. Forms do it all at once.

For example, even a level of physical fitness can be attributed to patterns practice. If you perform properly you should be out of breath, your heart pounding and your muscles aching. You can’t get nearly the same workout from drill work. You have to constantly “reset” the scenario as you and your partner go back to starting positions to do the drill again. You don’t have to sustain the intensity for extended sequences of movements; some forms can have over 100 moves where you have to keep at the same level of power throughout. Yes you can get the same workout from something else such as continuous sparring but that again misses out on other advantages of forms training. You could do a range of other training methods which will still deliver the benefits that I think you get from patterns, but I don’t think any of these alternative practices can provide all of these benefits in one exercise. You end up doing loads of little different exercises to develop stuff you can get from just practicing patterns alone.

The idea that forms serve as the manual or guide to a system is really what I’m getting at when I say they fit well into a system. You could argue everything you need to learn from a system is there in the patterns and what you do in sparring, in breaking, in self defence, is derived from them. By practising the techniques in the forms first you can then translate the techniques straight on over into the rest of these disciplines. Gen. Choi Hong Hi called patterns the “platoon tactics” a soldier would learn before attempting to apply them in field exercise (sparring) or actual combat (self defence). You have to learn and be competent with the tactics from the manual before you can be sent into battle.

In our school we do not have any set one-, two- or three- steps to learn. You are supposed to create your own using the movements from the patterns you know and be able to apply them in a way that you feel comfortable with. By the time you’ve learnt the first 3 forms, you have 7 different blocks and 6 attacks to work with. There are so many different permutations of applying these, all the different combinations and targets you can use, and it’s up to the student to come up with how they want to utilise them and what will suit them best. Of course an instructor can suggest combinations and variations for you to try but they cannot possibly give you all of them or necessarily provide you with ones to suit your personal style. Ultimately you will be using what you have created and what works best for you. The forms serve as your reference guide to pull all of these things from. By the time you reach blackbelt there of hundreds of responses that can be made to just basic front punch/jab attack alone. You can even take whole ready-made combinations and work with integrating them into your step sparring work. This then leads on really well into free sparring and self defence. In fact all you are doing in these further disciplines is to add more elements to the training such as spontaneity and the freedom to move around a bit more. That’s the natural progression from forms training. They act as a training manual, an instruction guide, something to lift the movements from and then apply.

Don’t know if any of you’ve read the sparring article I wrote for here but I made the point in there that if you stick a pad or partner in front of someone who is learning to do a kick or punch, more often than not technique goes out the window because not only do they have to think about the correct mechanics of the technique itself suddenly you have to multi-task and there is a whole lot of other stuff to be concentrating on too. You need to get the technique down and the movement ingrained before trying to cope with other factors too. I’m sure that the majority of people here have watched The Karate Kid and know of the “wax-on, wax-off” scene. Daniel spends days doing what he thinks are chores for Mr. Miyagi but he is actually practising blocking motions to ingrain the movement, a kata if you like. When it comes to doing the block on an attack he can do it straight off because the movement itself is already there. By doing forms you learn the motion and then can later take that and use it on the pads or in sparring. You won’t need to concentrate on the motion itself and can be thinking of other factors such as the correct angle and distance and your timing.

Maybe I should address the question of why do the movements in such as rigid, un-realistic way in the first place? My thoughts on this basically revolve around the idea that you are practicing the faultless version of the technique to ingrain that motion as muscle memory. You wouldn’t be doing the techniques like this in actual combat, you are demonstrating the perfect way to do them and showing you understand the mechanics that are behind them. I accept that a lot of people won’t like this description of the movements as being faultless or perfect but just bear with me on this one. I like to take the practise of breaking (tameshiwari) as an example of a situation where perfect technique can be executed and the effects clearly seen. In breaking you’ve taken away the majority of the factors which would mean that a movement of a technique has to be compromised or adapted in some way. What I mean by this is that you don’t have to worry about your opponent taking a swing at you before you’ve had time to kick him in the stomach. You don’t have to consider what you’re going to do after you land a strike; if you need to do a follow up attack. And yet the method of techniques you see in breaking is very close to what you see in the pattern practice. If you can send your fist through several inches of solid wood or a house brick it’s a good way of doing the punch surely?

With regards to those factors you need to consider that I just mentioned, of course the forms way of doing things will not be 100% suitable for free combat. Karate has a principle called “Shu Ha Ri” which basically means “learn, detach and transcend”. As I understand it this is actually meant to be related to doing exactly as your teacher says, developing your movements and then being able to separate and go your own way. In fact I think it’s a great way to explain how forms fit into your training if we skew the meaning. Forms are initially there to ingrain motions such as finishing the move and locking your stance, developing correct hip motion, relaxation between each movement, how to manage the weight when transferring between stances and tons more stuff to create this perfect move.

When you’ve started to ingrain the motions you can then detach away from this set way of delivering them and begin to adapt them for use in free fighting. If you want to sacrifice power in favour of delivering the attack to the target quicker you can cut the motion shorter. You might want to shorten or elongate a stance because it allows you move a certain way faster but as a result it is less stable. This is the departure from the perfect form yet each of the different variants you come up with are all born from that technically perfect way you learnt in forms practice. If you understand the method, you can adjust the technique to fit the purpose fairly easily and as a result end up with a whole spectrum of variants for just once technique. I really don’t think it’s as effective to try to teach a student a number of these variants straight off before making the “perfect version” muscle memory. You’ll have to constantly reinforce good mechanics whilst they’re dealing with the different ways of throwing a side kick rather than just applying it subconsciously. I think it’s much easier to teach a fundamental technique and then go about tweaking it to fit a different scenario rather than learning the modified versions all individually. Ultimately though, however you learn it, the movements and slight variants become second nature and you can transition between them fluidly and choose what to do without having to think, the transcending part of the learning.

I don’t think they exist just as a testing requirement but in a way having them as a testing requirement improves their effectiveness. Unfortunately the sad thing is that some students wouldn’t spend half the time perfecting the movements and studying them if they weren’t going to be tested on them for their next belt. Think about Chon Ji (the first form, typically used for 9th to 8th gup testing). You have to do 11 punches each time you practice the form. The 9th gup student is practicing for their exam and does this form 5 times at home after school or work. That’s 55 punches! How many people are honestly going to walk up and down the room doing 55 punches properly each time? I’d get bored after the first 10. Then you have to add in practice of the transition between stances, between block and punch, and the practice of doing both 90° and 180° turns. If you do all these bits in the order each time you’ve effectively created your own form anyway.

Besides, as far as being a testing requirement I think they’re pretty good. What other ways can you get a student to learn a collection of movements? If you want them to learn x types of block, y strikes, z kicks plus a whole bunch of different stances and transitions you might as well make it a set sequence. The other option is to just have the student doing line work, walking the techniques up and down the room. If anything the forms help the student remember the techniques they should be performing and to remember that it is a performance because they are effectively showing off that they know how that movement works. If you’re preparing for a grading or tournament it can even further help to motivate you to work towards a flawless execution each time. Having a form as such is going to encourage 100% effort on each technique something which you might not get from basic line work.

As an aside: I don’t actually consider applying the same techniques in sparring or in drills during the test as an alternative to doing forms because I believe this should be tested on in addition. The forms / fundamental practice are to show that you understand the method of the technique and can execute a near perfect example of it. Once you’ve demonstrated this to the examiner then you can show you understand the purpose of the movement by applying it. Learning a technique comes in two parts: understanding the method and knowing the purpose!

I suppose I do have a third line of reasoning why I think you should do patterns. Simply because they are challenging and fun to do. Like I said before it is a performance and it’s something you can work on to look artistic and add your own flair to. It’s particularly challenging if you compete with them, probably more so than with the other disciplines as you can’t afford to make a single mistake. In our competitions for every round you go head to head against an opponent and have to perform two forms. You do an optional form (for blackbelts it must be one of the three from your current grade and for colour belts either your current form or the one just below it) and a designated one which can be picked from anything up to and including your grade. Higher dan blackbelts can even end up having to do Chon Ji for their designated! At this level there should be no technical mistakes on the lower forms so how do you beat your opponent? If technical ability, power, balance etc. are equal then it comes down to who can do the best aesthetic performance (whilst still retaining the technical accuracy and all that). That’s the real challenge: winning a forms division where the judges are scrutinising each and every move you make and where your opponent has identical ability. In sparring you can make mistakes, you’ll just have to work harder to get the points back. Self defence doesn’t have to be technically perfect, it’ll probably be OK if you’re punch doesn’t hit dead centre. Forms competition is a whole different level; the slightest wobble or misaligned strike can mean game over.

One final note: Whether you agree with me or not about what I’ve said, if you enjoy doing forms and can make time for them then they definitely have a place in your martial arts training!

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I’d love criticism on all or any part of this. After all it’s how you develop your thoughts and opinions on things such as these. You might all thinks it’s a load of rubbish and that I’m forcing the points and that I keep going off on tangents. My original thesis also went on about the mentality and meanings behind some of the forms (bit more specific to my style) but thought this was getting a bit long so decided not to include it for the time being.

[bushido_man96]

That is a great article, Danielle. You have made a lot of good points in there, and I agree with many of them. It was overall enjoyable to read, and I will be chiming in on some personal reflections soon.

Thanks for posting it!

[bushido_man96]

One of the criticisms people often make about forms is that if the movements are intended to be applied in combat or in sparring practice, why not go straight to the source as it were and learn the movements in scenario specific drills because that would save time and therefore be more beneficial.

I have to wonder at times, if this isn't the way that forms were put together in the first place. If they are meant to be "catalogs" or "manuals" of systems, and the moves have applications, then were they put together in an order to make a template of what worked for someone? That's my reverse-engineering way of thinking how forms came to be in the first place.

Of course, we've had our discussions about the TKD forms and "bunkai" applications, and that they probably weren't put together in certain sequences based on that. So, that leaves the sequences either being for sparring combination/self-defense purposes in and of themselves, which isn't likely with all the forms, or like you mention, technical skill development.

But if you want to develop other things at the same time such as balance, focus, power, conditioning etc. you’ll have to spend more time working on other training methods to develop those and end up spending even more time training. Forms do it all at once.

I can buy into this idea. However, there are better ways to develop these attritbutes outside of forms. Forms can help improve these things; we agree there. Perhaps the benefit of the forms work is that you get some of all, although "all" of them won't necessarily be maximized. Yet, still a good point, and an ok rationalization, I think.

[ninjanurse]

Nice article! I agree with that forms are built in practice of the basics...a neat little package of all the things they need to internalize via muscle memory.

[mindsedgeblade]

Very nice writeup.

I certainly didn't feel that way when I first started learning though... They were just confusing, repetitive patterns in uncomfortable stances. But the more I get into applications (and higher forms), and realize what the forms can actualy do, the better I like them. There's a lot of talk about the Pinan/Heian/Pyong Ahn forms being designed as a "complete self defense system" which meshes with what you're saying. And I can see the Ki Cho/Sae Kye Hyung are exactly what a beginner needs too develop rudimentary skills. It's an "infantry skills manual." I would love to have 3-4 people available to attack when I do a form, to see how it works to kick the bejeezus out of them

I would almost say, "throw out any other punches and kicks in the air besides forms," but there is a lot to be learned in line drills throwing combinations and moving forward, and flowing between stances. And shadow boxing is a good warm up. It's no replacement for hitting something though. Whether it's a partner, a pad, focus mitts, or a heavy bag, you need to HIT SOMETHING to refine techinique and power. The one thing I don't really see the point in is having a bunch of people milling about looking confused and throwing wimpy technique with their heads down. Which is why I love focus mitts and a good partner... You never know what to expect.

[bushido_man96]

The idea that forms serve as the manual or guide to a system is really what I’m getting at when I say they fit well into a system. You could argue everything you need to learn from a system is there in the patterns and what you do in sparring, in breaking, in self defence, is derived from them.

The only issue I have here is that forms training is not conducive to all styles, like Judo and BJJ, for example. I know that Judo has some kata, but it isn't used like the forms of Karate and TKD.

Another thing is that in sparring, one probably uses well under half the techniques learned through the forms. X-style blocks rarely get used, and high blocks rarely get used in sparring. And I still haven't got to use that crescent kick/slap the hand/into the side kick application/combination in sparring.

By practising the techniques in the forms first you can then translate the techniques straight on over into the rest of these disciplines. Gen. Choi Hong Hi called patterns the “platoon tactics” a soldier would learn before attempting to apply them in field exercise (sparring) or actual combat (self defence). You have to learn and be competent with the tactics from the manual before you can be sent into battle.

I like the idea of the "platoon" tactics. But, I wouldn't call it platoon tactics as much as I would refer to them as a platoon training tool. Just like Funakoshi did with forms when he started training larger groups. Its easier to line everyone up and call out a cadence that everyone has to follow.

Another thing good about this is that instead of using regular old calesthenics like jumping jacks, push-ups, etc, they are training moves like punches, strikes, and kicks (not as many as the blocking motions, in my opinion), that will be useful when close quarters combat arrives. Like you said earlier, when they know the forms, they can buzz through them and get a good workout in, and the forms can be done in sets and reps, too. The drawback is that in order to do the forms, the moves have to be learned to a proficient level before they can be done at decent speed.

[DWx]

Thanks for the responses guys.

Of course, we've had our discussions about the TKD forms and "bunkai" applications, and that they probably weren't put together in certain sequences based on that. So, that leaves the sequences either being for sparring combination/self-defense purposes in and of themselves, which isn't likely with all the forms, or like you mention, technical skill development.

I had heard that one of the (non-political) reasons Juche replaced Kodang as a 2nd dan form was because Kodang wasn't hard enough and didn't have anything the other two forms didn't. An argument for technical skill development maybe? I wouldn't totally rule out the possibility the combinations were put in an order of what worked for one person. The ITF DPR. Korea demo team do some very good demos where they have 4 attackers against one person doing the form. Certainly shows that some of the patterns can be taken just as they are and applied (given the right circumstances of course).

But if you want to develop other things at the same time such as balance, focus, power, conditioning etc. you’ll have to spend more time working on other training methods to develop those and end up spending even more time training. Forms do it all at once.

I can buy into this idea. However, there are better ways to develop these attritbutes outside of forms. Forms can help improve these things; we agree there. Perhaps the benefit of the forms work is that you get some of all, although "all" of them won't necessarily be maximized. Yet, still a good point, and an ok rationalization, I think.

I'd agree with that. But I'd say that certainly for a beginner its good to give them one exercise to do rather then spend little amounts of time on one thing before swapping exercise and working on another area instead. Once you know what your weaknesses are then you can go about focusing more on that area.

The idea that forms serve as the manual or guide to a system is really what I’m getting at when I say they fit well into a system. You could argue everything you need to learn from a system is there in the patterns and what you do in sparring, in breaking, in self defence, is derived from them.

The only issue I have here is that forms training is not conducive to all styles, like Judo and BJJ, for example. I know that Judo has some kata, but it isn't used like the forms of Karate and TKD.

I agree that they wouldn't work well for Judo or BJJ. But those aren't striking based systems. Strikes don't rely so much on the opponent's bodyweight and momentum so you can practice them on your own whereas it does seem a little futile to practise a grab or throw in thin air.

Another thing is that in sparring, one probably uses well under half the techniques learned through the forms. X-style blocks rarely get used, and high blocks rarely get used in sparring. And I still haven't got to use that crescent kick/slap the hand/into the side kick application/combination in sparring.

I'm not so sure about that. I appreciate that not all of the techniques will be suitable for every situation and every person. You use the forms as a manual to select what you want from to then add to your repertoire.

Part of the problem is that normal sparring rules and even the equipment used limits the types of techniques you can do and so when you try stuff out in a more free, self defense type scenario its easy to fall back on the standard kicks and punches that you've practised 100 times. If you practice straight from the start with all these techniques in play people will start to pick them up and get very adept at using them. Different people will specialise in different strikes or blocks and there's no reason why an X-block isn't going to work for someone if you practise it enough. Like I said before, in our school we can use whatever we want in step-sparring and free non-sport sparring and have to come up with our own combinations. As a result you see a whole range of stuff being used that people have chosen because it works well for them and they like the technique. If you practise type of block or attack enough you get competent enough to use it.

The crescent kick - side kick combo for example can be applied. Of course you have to modify it slightly depending on the situation but like I send the in the OP, if you've learnt the proper mechanics first it shouldn't be a problem to adjust it. The crescent kick is meant to be a blocking action and I can apply it as such in controlled environments like step sparring but I'm not fast enough to use it in free sparring yet so... if you modify the initial kick to the offense vertical kick (which is very similar, I think some styles don't even make the distinction between the two) it can be used as an attack to the side of the head, chest if side on, and the side kick as follow up attack. The hand is there just as a focus, similar to what you do with most of the front elbow strikes.

Even if you don't do this combination at all its also there to serve as practice for any consecutive kick where you go from full facing to side facing.

By practising the techniques in the forms first you can then translate the techniques straight on over into the rest of these disciplines. Gen. Choi Hong Hi called patterns the “platoon tactics” a soldier would learn before attempting to apply them in field exercise (sparring) or actual combat (self defence). You have to learn and be competent with the tactics from the manual before you can be sent into battle.

I like the idea of the "platoon" tactics. But, I wouldn't call it platoon tactics as much as I would refer to them as a platoon training tool. Just like Funakoshi did with forms when he started training larger groups. Its easier to line everyone up and call out a cadence that everyone has to follow.

Another thing good about this is that instead of using regular old calesthenics like jumping jacks, push-ups, etc, they are training moves like punches, strikes, and kicks (not as many as the blocking motions, in my opinion), that will be useful when close quarters combat arrives. Like you said earlier, when they know the forms, they can buzz through them and get a good workout in, and the forms can be done in sets and reps, too. The drawback is that in order to do the forms, the moves have to be learned to a proficient level before they can be done at decent speed.

The "platoon tactics" bit follows on from this whole theory that training can be divided up into 5 different practices, each of which had a military equivalent. I did write an article on this for KF so I won't spoil it but you get different elements which equate to basic training, platoon tactics, maintenance of equipment, field exercise and actual combat. But I like your idea of it being a platoon training tool.

It's no replacement for hitting something though. Whether it's a partner, a pad, focus mitts, or a heavy bag, you need to HIT SOMETHING to refine techinique and power. The one thing I don't really see the point in is having a bunch of people milling about looking confused and throwing wimpy technique with their heads down. Which is why I love focus mitts and a good partner... You never know what to expect.

I totally agree that you have to have pads or a bag or even someone's head to hit Punching the air can only do so much, once you've got a firm grounding in the technique I think you have to then go work it on a target.

[bushido_man96]

The "platoon tactics" bit follows on from this whole theory that training can be divided up into 5 different practices, each of which had a military equivalent. I did write an article on this for KF so I won't spoil it but you get different elements which equate to basic training, platoon tactics, maintenance of equipment, field exercise and actual combat. But I like your idea of it being a platoon training tool.

I can't wait to see that article, too!

I was talking with a training friend of mine yesterday, who served in Korea for a time at the DMZ, way back when. He said that his platoon, when they got there, I think the first 3 months, they trained TKD. One of the main reasons they did this was because of the North Korean's training in it, and they wanted the troops to be familiar with it (as well as the ROK Marines they were stationed with did it, too). After the 3 months, they got the option to either do TKD, or to do PT. He said a lot opted to do TKD, and he said he would've gone into hand-to-hand combat with the platoon any day, because they all knew how to fight.

They did it twice a day, and then did their normal running, etc.

[mindsedgeblade]

I can't wait to see that article, too!

Ditto!

I was talking with a training friend of mine yesterday, who served in Korea for a time at the DMZ, way back when. He said that his platoon, when they got there, I think the first 3 months, they trained TKD. One of the main reasons they did this was because of the North Korean's training in it, and they wanted the troops to be familiar with it (as well as the ROK Marines they were stationed with did it, too). After the 3 months, they got the option to either do TKD, or to do PT. He said a lot opted to do TKD, and he said he would've gone into hand-to-hand combat with the platoon any day, because they all knew how to fight.

They did it twice a day, and then did their normal running, etc.

I can't think of anyone that would opt for Army/Marine PT over martial arts... "Hmm, let's see. Kicking and punching and sparring, or running and pushups... "