Defending One's Property

[MonkeyNinja]

Early this morning, I was walking to work to get a bite to eat. Drank too much coffee, so I was wired.

 

Anyways on the way there, I heard fire trucks, and police screaming by a block away.

 

I followed the sound to find several people standing outside a apartment complex. Three young appearing gentlemen was sitting on the curb all in handcuffs, with a strecher being pulled out of an ambulance.

 

The reason? To my understanding (from reports of 3 witnesses), two kids broke into a 5 vehicles. Stole, or attempted to steal several personal items, including cd's, stereos, etc. One vehicle had numerous puncture marks in the trunk. They almost looked like bullet holes.

 

The two kids was caught by the owners of one of the vehicle. A fight insued, one kid only 15, pulled out a screwdriver and attempted to stab one of the the would-be attackers.

 

Needless to say the kid got beat up pretty bad. The other thief fled.

 

The two gentlemen who confronted the thief, was arrested. It is unkown, what happened to the kid(s).

 

The morale of the story: It is ok to be a victim of a crime. It is ok to let someone steal from you. But it is NOT OK to confront an thief/ vandal or defend oneself against an attacker.

 

Now grant it he was only 15, but history has showed us that kids even this young are dangerous.

 

But this whole story has caused me to think about my morales. If I was confronted by a teenager with a weapon, who has intentions of hurting me or stealing from me, would I be able to harm him? Or would I let him do harm to me? MMMmmmmm....

 

MonkeyNinja

[shuriken_girl]

It all depends on the situation...but a few CDs stolen from you is definently better than either of you getting hurt.

 

Of course I'd kick their @$$ though if they were hurting someone I care about. But then again, that situation is totally different...

[Taikudo-ka]

Societies so called "morality" has been severely screwed up for a long, long time.

 

Try reading "Atlas Shrugged" by Ayn Rand for an extreme example of "big brother government knows best collectivism" vs individual rights.

 

See, what those men did wrong was try to actually defend their individual rights, individually. ("Rights" which of course they don't really have.) The "correct" thing to do is to wait for Big Brother to arrive and determine what should be done, then let the "officially" appointed people handle it. Do NOT attempt to actually do anything yourself.

 

At least, that's how Big Brother sees it...

 

 

[G95champ]

I had a friend I traind with. He was really really good. Best fighter I have ever been arround. He did Gracie Ju-Jitsu trained in Brazil at one of their schools. He had also been doing Tai since he was in grade school. O and he was Marine in the Gulf War.

 

Anyhow he owned a driving range fun park. (golf) Had a mini golf course, driving range, speed boats, go karts, batting cages, etc.

 

Anyhow some guys were drunk and were doing stupid things on the go karts like bumping little kids etc. When his worker tried to get them off the track they cussed him and and tried to fight him.

 

My friend stepped in and asked them to leave and he walked the 3 guys out to the parking lot. He pushed the last guy out the gate. (hand on the shoulder and sort of a one hand shove) When this happend a fight broke out.

 

Now I don't know the details of the fight cause he said it happend so fast he just reacted. However I do know the end results. I know this cause my cousins wife is a Nurse and was working ER that night. She said she thought they had been in a car wreck.

 

One guy had his jaw smashed. She said it was like a bag of water just hanging. He lost several teeth and his mouth had to be wired shut.

 

The second guy had a dislocated shoulder and 2 broke ribs.

 

The third guy had a broke nose.

 

Now my friend was is the right because he was more or less defending his property and his workers and coustomers. However the judge ruled because he was the owner he should have used more restraint. My friend did 6 months in jail for this. He got out a bit early on good behavior. The judge said if it had been at your home that would be fine but because you were the owner you should have shown more control in the situation.

 

I think most would have done what he done but I don't know if we could have done it so well.

 

BTW my friend only had a busted lip.

 

_________________

 

(General George S. Patton Jr.) "It's the unconquerable soul of man, and not the nature of the weapon he uses, that ensures victory."

 

[ This Message was edited by: G95champ on 2002-08-02 00:45 ]

[BlueDragon1981]

Most material Items I would just let them have. If they tried to harm a member of my family or my children I would probably beat the *iss out of them.

 

I think at the age of 15 you have the mind to know what you are doing and if it is wrong. So you get what comes to you. As for the victims they should have just let it go because it was just material. Just hand them into police if you see them. Much safer that way. Specially as a martial artist. We would get heavier charges on us.

 

[monkeygirl]

There's such a thing as going too far.

 

Defending yourself is one thing: beating your attacker half to death is another. If you fear for your life, then by all means do what you have to, but the point is: if it's taken care of, it's taken care of.

 

The most sad and pathetic part is that the criminals have the audacity to press charges against the victims! .... c'est la vie

 

 

[Don Gwinn]

Your conclusion as to the "Lesson" doesn't follow from your description of what happened. They were only arrested. They were not convicted or punished. For all we know they might have been released half an hour later and no charges filed, or they might have been charged but no-billed by the grand jury.

 

If you are involved in a fight or, God forbid, a death, expect to be cuffed and detained when the police arrive. It doesn't matter if the police are personally certain that you are in the right. If they didn't do this, any murderer with a good story could walk away from the scene.

 

IF these men are charged, convicted and punished, then we've got a problem. I would, however, like to point out one more thing.

 

I see a lot of comments about how one should not use force to protect property. Of course, that's perfectly legal in some places, so viewpoints must vary somewhat. More importantly, though, from Monkeyninja's story, it seems that this is NOT what the two men did. They confronted the thieves and told them to stop and leave. Had they done so, we can only assume the pair would have let them go and called the police. Instead, they chose to attack.

 

You ARE allowed to confront a criminal and warn him to stop what he is doing. It's iffy only because if he runs away or obeys your commands you must have the control to stop at that point. If he runs, you should let him go unless he was doing something truly dangerous--rape, armed robbery, beating someone, etc.

 

You are NOT allowed to ambush the kid who's pulling the stereo out of your car and lay him out with an elbow to the head from behind before he knows you're there, nor should you shoot him without warning.

 

However, if you confront him, and he makes the choice to attack you, you are perfectly justified in defending yourself. This may not apply in "duty to retreat" states, so YMMV.

[Athorn4941]

If things like this happen we have to stand up for what we believe in. If you go to jail do what you can to get out of jail legaly and hopefully in the process the law that put you in there unjustly gets declared unlawful. We as a people must stand up for what we believe even if you are breaking the law. What the law says doesnt mean its right. I Saw this one story where a girl got kick out of school cuase she gave her freind some of her inhaler when she had an asthma attack thus saving her life. well the law had zero tolerance for this but what would you do let the person die. Look how the us makes it so you cant have weapons on you. well i carry mine concealed with me everywhere. i dont plan to use them. its just a secruity issue with me. well am i wrong. the law says i am but am I.