Question about Joong Gun in Encyclopaedia of "Taekwondo

[DWx]

I have a copy of the 5th edition of the condensed Encyclopaedia of TKD by Gen Choi.

In my copy of the book, in the list of techniques for Joong Gun, movements 27 and 29 (pressing block in low stance) aren't actually listed as being performed in slow motion. Usually it says something like "Perform [movements] 1 and 2 in fast motion" or "Perform in a slow motion" written after the instructions for the technique but for these techniques in Joong Gun there isn't any direction.

It does say slow motion here: http://www.comdo.com/patterns07.html

and as far as I know its always been done in slow motion.

Is this just a misprint in my copy/version? or did it used to be performed in normal motion a while back?

[bushido_man96]

I need to check my set, but I have always done it as a slow motion. Maybe it is just an oversight in your edition?

[tonydee]

(note: the following constitutes fair use as quoting from a copyrighted source, as a miniscule amount is quoted)

From the full Encyclopaedia, volume 9, page 268: "execute a pressing block to C with the right palm while forming a low stance toward C, slipping the left foot". No mention of slow motion. In the additional techniques for the hyung, page 206 deals with "Walking Stance Palm Pressing Block" (Gunnon So Sonbadak Noollo Makgi), and only says:

1. The pressing palm reaches the same level as the lower abdomen of the defender.

2. The other palm reaches the same level as the solar plexus.

Again, no mention of slow motion.

Page 275 is the only page to show applications: in the first picture the upper hand checks a reverse punch (clearly wouldn't work) while the lower hand checks an upward front kick; the second illustration shows the application the same except that the punch is a a reverse punch from back stance (still implausible). Summarily, the illustrated applications are a load of nonsense, but again make no suggestion of slowness.

Personally, I move the hands quickly into the position where they're starting to press, locking them in close to the body, then drop them as the back hip rotates through and the stance drops slightly. This is slower than the initial movement into position, and consistent with using the technique against some resistance or joint. But, there's no justification for that from the Encyclopaedia.

[DWx]

In the

(done by Gen. Choi) it is done slower in Joong Gun and its slower in these old videos also made by Gen. Choi.

Just wondering why it doesn't say slow in the book. Obviously its not just that this technique is always slow as its definitely not done this way in Choi Yong or kibon practice.

Why do you say the applications are nonsense Tony? Its no different from attempting to use an upward block or downward block except that you're doing both at the same time. TBH I personally wouldn't use it to check a kick because of the risk of getting my fingers hit rather than the palm but having said that I can appreciate why it could work.

We keep the hands moving the whole time, finishing them when the stance finishes. When done fast it feels more like a striking action then pressing.

[bushido_man96]

I'd have to agree with Tony on the applications. Most of them from the encylcopedia are simply bunk. I think that's why some people have dug into the moves to find applications that make more sense.

[DWx]

I don't have a problem with most of them. There are an odd few that I would never try to use in that way but most of them I think are fine? True test for me is can you use them in a free spar and can they be done with power? If you can then I don't see why you can't use that application.

[tonydee]

Why do you say the applications are nonsense Tony? Its no different from attempting to use an upward block or downward block except that you're doing both at the same time.

(Sorry for the slow response... new job, house move etc..)

Not sure if you've seen the applications? In both illustrations, the defender has applied an upward palm under a punch, such that the punching arm ends up very close to the attackers' shoulder height. Now, given the extended punching arm is a fixed length, its reach described a circle around our shoulders, and it reaches furthest forwards when extended at shoulder height. So, if that upward palm has lifted a punch from some lower height up to shoulder height, it's actually ensuring the fist is free and angled with maximum chance of reaching the defender. There's absolutely nothing in the illustrations to suggest any way in which the punch has obstructed or deflected the attack from it's target (around the defender's sternum): rather it's encouraged the punch in its reach. It doesn't even leave the upward-blocking arm well positioned for follow up defense or attack, nor for a grasp or unbalancing technique. That's why it's ostensibly a remarkably useless application.

By way of contrast, a vertical deflection that pulls the fist well below or above the attacker's shoulder height prevents it reaching so far forwards, and can at least have some claim to defensive utility, though a sideways deflection of 10cm is pretty much always enough to make an attack miss, whereas sine(45deg) ~= 0.7, so even a 45 degree deflection in height only degrades reach by 30 percent. Consequently, I train more for sideways deflection (particularly preferring high-side- to rising-block as a defense against head-level punches).

I'm not saying that movement doesn't have any application - just that the ones shown for that upward hand are either beyond my abilities to appreciate, or without merit - take your pick .

I was always taught to consider this movement to have the upward hand securing one joint while the downward hand thrusts through the next - breaking an elbow or affecting a takedown from capturing a front kick (delivered in from the side) with the upward hand under the heel as the downward hand shoves the knee. In practice, this may or may not work anyway - depending on relative strength, but it's more in line with my hapkido training too.

So - ironically - I end up mirroring Anslow (yes, 'twas him of whom I spoke else-forum) by choosing when to throw away the "official" application in favour of my own, but here I think it's justified because I'm not arbitrarily choosing a second and third application when the primary application is clear and effective, but seeking any workable interpretation to begin with.

And since we've gone there, on pg 221 of his book he illustrates just such an elbow break for the similar move in 4th grade pattern.

We keep the hands moving the whole time, finishing them when the stance finishes. When done fast it feels more like a striking action then pressing.

Yes... same kind of feel for me.

[DWx]

Why do you say the applications are nonsense Tony? Its no different from attempting to use an upward block or downward block except that you're doing both at the same time.

(Sorry for the slow response... new job, house move etc..)

Not sure if you've seen the applications? In both illustrations, the defender has applied an upward palm under a punch, such that the punching arm ends up very close to the attackers' shoulder height. Now, given the extended punching arm is a fixed length, its reach described a circle around our shoulders, and it reaches furthest forwards when extended at shoulder height. So, if that upward palm has lifted a punch from some lower height up to shoulder height, it's actually ensuring the fist is free and angled with maximum chance of reaching the defender. There's absolutely nothing in the illustrations to suggest any way in which the punch has obstructed or deflected the attack from it's target (around the defender's sternum): rather it's encouraged the punch in its reach. It doesn't even leave the upward-blocking arm well positioned for follow up defense or attack, nor for a grasp or unbalancing technique. That's why it's ostensibly a remarkably useless application.

Ok, like I said I don't have the 15 volume book (yet ) so I'll go with the pictures in the condensed version...

I totally agree that shoulder height would mean the maximum punching range. However the attack isn't being blocked or moved to the shoulder height, shown in the photos is where the attacker is directing their arm to and the point on the arm where the block makes contact. Kind of like a snapshot of the exact moment you connect. The idea is you smack it upward because it was already directed to shoulder height. Likewise with a downward block you'd smack it downwards to deflect.

I think the distinction needs to be made between impact and non-impacting blocks. As you agreed this block does feel like a strike. That's because the upward block is an impact block, not a soft/parry type of block. The photos show a static image of the moment of impact not where the technique finishes nor what the attacker looks like after a successful block. In practice your hand travels slightly further than the photos show as you strike the arm.

And because it is an impact block and striking action, it is possible to smack the hand upwards. The attacker is putting all of their energy into moving their fist horizontally (parallel to the floor), you make impact moving along the vertical axis, conservation of energy and momentum means their arm has to move upwards if you're creating enough impact. The possible counter to this is to place the opposite hand on the back of the arm to "hold" the arm down, as in say Po Eun moves 10 and 28. Now you've applied the downward vertical force to counter act the upward block.

By way of contrast, a vertical deflection that pulls the fist well below or above the attacker's shoulder height prevents it reaching so far forwards, and can at least have some claim to defensive utility, though a sideways deflection of 10cm is pretty much always enough to make an attack miss, whereas sine(45deg) ~= 0.7, so even a 45 degree deflection in height only degrades reach by 30 percent. Consequently, I train more for sideways deflection (particularly preferring high-side- to rising-block as a defense against head-level punches).

I personally prefer sideways blocks too and I can't argue with the deflection percentages. However the upward blocks do open up opportunities for some nice counter attacks by to the body and under the arm. And you never know there might be a situation where upwards is the only way you can go. IMO be best to have a least one I could use in my repertoire.

[tonydee]

However the attack isn't being blocked or moved to the shoulder height, shown in the photos is where the attacker is directing their arm to and the point on the arm where the block makes contact. Kind of like a snapshot of the exact moment you connect. The idea is you smack it upward because it was already directed to shoulder height. Likewise with a downward block you'd smack it downwards to deflect.

Very interesting indeed! I have a lot of trouble imagining those applications really working (and more reservations re whether say the tai chi ward off movement might not do a similar thing in a much stronger, defensible and refined way), but sounds like an opportunity for me to try something new... always very welcome. I'll grab someone next training session and smack them up and down... see where it gets me... possibly not in their good books . Many thanks for your keen insight.

[bushido_man96]

I have the same issue with these pressing blocks. I don't see much practicality in them, especially as blocks.