Jiu Jitsu, Judo and BJJ

[Jay]

Hi

Now im going to be taking up some judo and BJJ for my ground game which I think is really gonna help me.

However im interested in the history of Japanese Jiu Jitsu, Judo and Brazillian Jiu Jitsu and how one evolved into the other.

I know that Judo removed some things from Jiu Jitsu and then there were some changes to form BJJ from Judo.

Thanks

[ps1]

It sounds like you have the basic jist of it.

Mitsuyo Maeda (bio- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsuyo_Maeda), a high ranking and talented judoka and direct student of Kano, traveled the world and, among many other things, prize fought. The rules of many of the contests varied and there are numerous unconfirmed stories of them. By the time he ended up in Brazil, he was highly skilled and well tested in his fighting prowess. In return for some political help he recieved from the family, he taught the eldest gracie son (carlos Sr.) an art he called Jiu Jitsu.

The time frame in which he taught Carlos is up for grabs; but is generally believed to be between two and four years of continuous private training. In turn, Carlos taught the art to his brothers (except Helio, who was considered to frail to train). Helio, however, watched his brothers every day and, apparently in secret, learned the movements of the art. One day, a student of Carlos' showed up for a private lesson but Carlos was unable to make it on time. Helio jumped in and taught the student. When Carlos came in and apologized, the student politely asked if he could learn from Helio from that point on.

Over time, Helio adjusted many of the moves that he felt required too much strength. He either removed them or made sure they were done with proper leverage. That is how the Gracie style of BJJ came into being.

As far as Japanese Jujitsu goes...there are several different types. Most are made up of techniques that stem back to the traditional koryu of ancient japanese warriors.

[bushido_man96]

Good summation, ps1. I've read similar history in one of Helio's BJJ books. Very interesting to see how each evolved.

[Jay]

Im still continuing research on this topic because its interesting.

Here is an article I found

http://www.jiu-jitsu.net/history.shtml

Its interesting to me that both Carlos Snr and Helio both claim they altered techniques to make them easier and maybe they did but its seems both want the credit.

Although im definatly expert on the subject just interested it turns out most of the supposed BJJ developed techniques were in the original Judo but they were not named as such. 50/50 guard, rubber guard, gogoplata etc

Admitedly though as I have not started BJJ yet I only know as much as I see in pictures and books.

[brickshooter]

It sounds like you have the basic jist of it.

Mitsuyo Maeda (bio- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsuyo_Maeda), a high ranking and talented judoka and direct student of Kano, traveled the world and, among many other things, prize fought. The rules of many of the contests varied and there are numerous unconfirmed stories of them. By the time he ended up in Brazil, he was highly skilled and well tested in his fighting prowess. In return for some political help he recieved from the family, he taught the eldest gracie son (carlos Sr.) an art he called Jiu Jitsu.

The time frame in which he taught Carlos is up for grabs; but is generally believed to be between two and four years of continuous private training. In turn, Carlos taught the art to his brothers (except Helio, who was considered to frail to train). Helio, however, watched his brothers every day and, apparently in secret, learned the movements of the art. One day, a student of Carlos' showed up for a private lesson but Carlos was unable to make it on time. Helio jumped in and taught the student. When Carlos came in and apologized, the student politely asked if he could learn from Helio from that point on.

Over time, Helio adjusted many of the moves that he felt required too much strength. He either removed them or made sure they were done with proper leverage. That is how the Gracie style of BJJ came into being.

As far as Japanese Jujitsu goes...there are several different types. Most are made up of techniques that stem back to the traditional koryu of ancient japanese warriors.

Is there also a style difference between the Carlos school and the Helio school? I was under the impression that Helio focused more on pure grappling strategy, whereas Carlos cross trained more and incoporated more strikes, which ironically is what Jiu Jitsu was before the popularity of Judo killed it off in Japan.

[JiuJitsuNation]

It sounds like you have the basic jist of it.

Mitsuyo Maeda (bio- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsuyo_Maeda), a high ranking and talented judoka and direct student of Kano, traveled the world and, among many other things, prize fought. The rules of many of the contests varied and there are numerous unconfirmed stories of them. By the time he ended up in Brazil, he was highly skilled and well tested in his fighting prowess. In return for some political help he recieved from the family, he taught the eldest gracie son (carlos Sr.) an art he called Jiu Jitsu.

The time frame in which he taught Carlos is up for grabs; but is generally believed to be between two and four years of continuous private training. In turn, Carlos taught the art to his brothers (except Helio, who was considered to frail to train). Helio, however, watched his brothers every day and, apparently in secret, learned the movements of the art. One day, a student of Carlos' showed up for a private lesson but Carlos was unable to make it on time. Helio jumped in and taught the student. When Carlos came in and apologized, the student politely asked if he could learn from Helio from that point on.

Over time, Helio adjusted many of the moves that he felt required too much strength. He either removed them or made sure they were done with proper leverage. That is how the Gracie style of BJJ came into being.

As far as Japanese Jujitsu goes...there are several different types. Most are made up of techniques that stem back to the traditional koryu of ancient japanese warriors.

Is there also a style difference between the Carlos school and the Helio school? I was under the impression that Helio focused more on pure grappling strategy, whereas Carlos cross trained more and incoporated more strikes, which ironically is what Jiu Jitsu was before the popularity of Judo killed it off in Japan.

The whole family incorporated strikes. Hence Vale Tudo

[brickshooter]

It sounds like you have the basic jist of it.

Mitsuyo Maeda (bio- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsuyo_Maeda), a high ranking and talented judoka and direct student of Kano, traveled the world and, among many other things, prize fought. The rules of many of the contests varied and there are numerous unconfirmed stories of them. By the time he ended up in Brazil, he was highly skilled and well tested in his fighting prowess. In return for some political help he recieved from the family, he taught the eldest gracie son (carlos Sr.) an art he called Jiu Jitsu.

The time frame in which he taught Carlos is up for grabs; but is generally believed to be between two and four years of continuous private training. In turn, Carlos taught the art to his brothers (except Helio, who was considered to frail to train). Helio, however, watched his brothers every day and, apparently in secret, learned the movements of the art. One day, a student of Carlos' showed up for a private lesson but Carlos was unable to make it on time. Helio jumped in and taught the student. When Carlos came in and apologized, the student politely asked if he could learn from Helio from that point on.

Over time, Helio adjusted many of the moves that he felt required too much strength. He either removed them or made sure they were done with proper leverage. That is how the Gracie style of BJJ came into being.

As far as Japanese Jujitsu goes...there are several different types. Most are made up of techniques that stem back to the traditional koryu of ancient japanese warriors.

Is there also a style difference between the Carlos school and the Helio school? I was under the impression that Helio focused more on pure grappling strategy, whereas Carlos cross trained more and incoporated more strikes, which ironically is what Jiu Jitsu was before the popularity of Judo killed it off in Japan.

The whole family incorporated strikes. Hence Vale Tudo

Well that's competitive training for those who wanted to compete in Vale Tudo. But I was referring to the daily training syllabus for the average BJJ practicioner under either the Helio lineage or the Carlos lineage.

I think they took a different path. It's not just a rivalry between the uncle's school vs the father's school. There was actually a stylistic difference.

[JiuJitsuNation]

Master Palhares has trained with all of them for 35 years and I have trained with them as well just obviously not as extensively. And Vale Tudo then included biting ears off and such. Was a real street fight and not a sport to them. It did however evolve into one. And I have noticed that one side is slightly more focused on the self defense aspect (not necessarily grappling) and the other is focused on the fight.

[ps1]

Is there also a style difference between the Carlos school and the Helio school? I was under the impression that Helio focused more on pure grappling strategy, whereas ...

Not really. After Helio began teaching, Carlos Sr. began delving deeply into nutrition and eventually developed the Gracie Diet. He ran the school finances and did managerial type work. But the fighting and teaching were handled by Helio first, then Carlos' and Helio's children after that. But Helio trained all of them.

The differences between what Carlos taught and what Helio taught were that Carlos taught what he had learned from Maeda. It was Helio that modified the art into what it is today.

Obviously, I was not present for any of this. My instructor Master Pedro Sauer, who trained with Helio and his son Rickson directly, is the one who gave me this information. He trained in the Rio Academy and said he never really saw Carlos train much.

...Carlos cross trained more and incoporated more strikes, which ironically is what Jiu Jitsu was before the popularity of Judo killed it off in Japan.

This is not exactly true either. What Jigoro Kano recognized in the Koryu Jujitsu systems he had studied was that there was no coherent strategy, rather just a bunch of different moves without and governing concept or doctrine. It was Kano, as he developed Judo, that came up with the principle of maximum effect with minimum effort. Any technique that did not fit that principle was dismissed. He (Kano) didn't totally remove all striking, though it's certainly not practiced much anymore. He simply put the focus on the techniques that could be applied efficiently without serious injury to the opponent. Hence, throws and joint manipulations became the techniques of choice.

[JiuJitsuNation]

Is there also a style difference between the Carlos school and the Helio school? I was under the impression that Helio focused more on pure grappling strategy, whereas ...

Not really. After Helio began teaching, Carlos Sr. began delving deeply into nutrition and eventually developed the Gracie Diet. He ran the school finances and did managerial type work. But the fighting and teaching were handled by Helio first, then Carlos' and Helio's children after that. But Helio trained all of them.

The differences between what Carlos taught and what Helio taught were that Carlos taught what he had learned from Maeda. It was Helio that modified the art into what it is today.

Obviously, I was not present for any of this. My instructor Master Pedro Sauer, who trained with Helio and his son Rickson directly, is the one who gave me this information. He trained in the Rio Academy and said he never really saw Carlos train much.

...Carlos cross trained more and incoporated more strikes, which ironically is what Jiu Jitsu was before the popularity of Judo killed it off in Japan.

This is not exactly true either. What Jigoro Kano recognized in the Koryu Jujitsu systems he had studied was that there was no coherent strategy, rather just a bunch of different moves without and governing concept or doctrine. It was Kano, as he developed Judo, that came up with the principle of maximum effect with minimum effort. Any technique that did not fit that principle was dismissed. He (Kano) didn't totally remove all striking, though it's certainly not practiced much anymore. He simply put the focus on the techniques that could be applied efficiently without serious injury to the opponent. Hence, throws and joint manipulations became the techniques of choice.

Good stuff. Master Palhares And Master Sauer came up together from what I understand. Luiz trained under Rolls until he died and then Carlos for a while. He then started training with Rickson and taught at Ricksons school for a few years. Different family members focus on different thing although for the most part you will find the sport BJJ, Vale Tudo and self defense aspects in most every school.